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When all boats retire.
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JohnW View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 2:28pm
In today's race two boats started the race.
Boat A capsized and retired, and came ashore. Boat B continued.
On the last but one leg of the course boat B capsized got its mast stuck in the mud and required assistance from a rescue launch to recover.

After recovery, boat B continued sailing (presumably to drain the water) and in doing so completed the course and crossed the finish line. She retired from the race due to receiving assistance from the rescue boat (rule 41).

So how should the race be scored?
It seems to depends on whether she was deemed to have finished or not. 

Rule 35
The race committee shall score a race or series as provided in
Appendix A using the Low Point System, unless the sailing
instructions specify some other system. A race shall be scored
if it is not abandoned and if one boat sails the course in
compliance with rule 28 and finishes within the time limit, if
any, even if she retires after finishing or is disqualified.

Rule 90.3a says:
The race committee shall score a race or series as provided in
Appendix A using the Low Point System, unless the sailing
instructions specify some other system. A race shall be scored
if it is not abandoned and if one boat sails the course in
compliance with rule 28 and finishes within the time limit, if
any, even if she retires after finishing or is disqualified.

Definition of finishing:
Finish A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in
normal position, crosses the finishing line from the course side. However, she
has not finished if after crossing the finishing line she
(a) takes a penalty under rule 44.2,
(b) corrects an error under rule 28.2 made at the line, or
(c) continues to sail the course.

As Boat B crossed the finish line from the course side, is she still deemed to have finished even though she accepted outside assistance earlier?
If so then Boats A & B would both score RTD (3 points).  If she didn't finish then the race would be abandoned.  
There is little difference from the point of view of the race, but it could affect the overall series result.
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Blue One View Drop Down
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Posts: 317 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blue One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 3:13pm
Both would score retired 3 at our club.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 3:28pm
It may well depend on your sailing instructions. However you're saying that boat B sailed the course and finished in accordance with the rules. Therefore, unless the SIs say differently I would say that the race stands and both boats are scored RET.
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Time Lord View Drop Down
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Posts: 301 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 4:40pm
Why should the race be abandoned? Two boats took part but both retired for different reasons. Agree with JimC and Blue One - both scored as retired ie number of boats in the race +1 which is 3. I can see now reason why the race should be abandoned unless your SIs specify this must happen.
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JohnW View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 5:10pm
If boat B had retired and not crossed the line, none of the boats would have sailed the course, therefore the RRS say that the race is abandoned (rules 35, 90.3).

In this case boat B did cross the line. 
Is boat B deemed to have retired when they accept assistance from the rescue boat? and therefore did she finish the race.

If you retire and then cross the line are you still finishing?




Edited by JohnW - 09 Feb 14 at 5:15pm
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AlexM View Drop Down
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Posts: 857 		Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 5:34pm
I thought if there if there are no finishers, there was no race to retire from. So they would get DNC?
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JohnW View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by AlexM

I thought if there if there are no finishers, there was no race to retire from. So they would get DNC?

Alex that would be the case normaly, but in this case Boat B crossed the line from course side which meets the criteria for finishing (I think).  

If one boat finishes and then retires the race would stand (both RTD).
If no one finishes then the race is classed as abandoned.

So, does their crossing the line count as a finish if they have accepted outside help? 

 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 5:57pm
You know John, you sound suspiciously like someone who, having got the answer, doesn't like it...
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AlexM View Drop Down
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Posts: 857 		Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 6:01pm
As soon as the boat receives outside assistance I would of thought they have RTD at that point and it doesn't matter the went on to sail the rest of the course?
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JohnW View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by JimC

You know John, you sound suspiciously like someone who, having got the answer, doesn't like it...

It does perhaps sound like that, but not the case here, I was watching so was neither A nor B - its just the pedant in me wanting to know what the correct answer is.

When boat B capsized I assumed that the race would not stand. When I got home I checked the rules and realised that if B was considered to have finished then the race would stand.

I have to admit I get confused with the definition of finishing. I think we have had other threads where a boat sails the wrong course but crosses the finish line in accordance with the definition so is still classed as finishing.  
I guess this is a variation on that.  If you retire and then cross the finish line, are you still finishing?
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