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RC311 
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Joined: 07 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 5 |
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 Topic: After FinishingPosted: 18 Oct 05 at 3:13pm |
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What is the correct penalty for a boat that has already finished a race and
whilst sailing back to shore accidently impedes a boat that is still racing, affecting that boats finishing position, but no damage occurs to either boat? The finished boat accepts that he was in the wrong, and caused the incident through lack of attention. |
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CurlyBen
Really should get out more 
Joined: 17 Aug 05 Location: Southampton Online Status: Offline Posts: 539 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 3:33pm |
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I'm not an expert but I would guess that as the boat that has finished
it is no longer subject to the racing rules of sailing, so there is no
infringement of the rules on their part. However, I would imagine the
boat that was impeded would be able to ask for redress to get it's
place reinstated.
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RC311
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Joined: 07 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 5 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 4:07pm |
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Thanks Curly Ben, but since no damage occured I can't see any grounds
for redress. It's a bit late for the boat to do penalty turns and I can't see anything in the rules that says that offender would have to retire. I would like to reiterate that the collision was accidental and not deliberate. There seems to be no solution to this in the ISAF Case Book, so perhaps some of you rules experts out there could shed some light on this. |
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311
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CurlyBen
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Joined: 17 Aug 05 Location: Southampton Online Status: Offline Posts: 539 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 4:12pm |
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Redress is not purely for damage; I do a lot of team racing, and there
have been a few occasions when a boat has broken the rules (normally
through misunderstanding them) where their gain has been much greater
than their loss due to taking turns - for example their team may have
gained 3 or 4 places for a loss of 2. At school level there is never
redress (in my experience anyway!) but I'm pretty sure that would be
grounds for it. Similarly in this case it was a mistake by another boat
that caused the boat in question to lose places, so I think there would
be grounds for it in this case, although it's going to be too late by
now for it!
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reddeck74
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Joined: 25 Oct 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 11 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 6:11pm |
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My guess is that the incident to which RC311 refers is covered by Rule 22.1
(Part 2) - "If reasonably possible a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing". - If it does that is unfair I would say. Now Rule 2 (Part 1) covers fair sailing. However in this case the offending boat is not racing - having just finished. Note though that Part 2 does refer to a boat not racing, which seems to suggest Part 2 can apply to a boat no longer racing(?). Presumably therefore a disqualification as referred to in Rule 2 can be applied to a boat no longer racing. Any such disqualificatio would apply to the race just completed. If the offending boat were just cruising it cannot obviously be disqaulified How's that sound? |
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David
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Stefan Lloyd
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Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 6:40pm |
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You are still under the racing rules after you have finished racing and in particular 22.1 applies. The preamble to part 2 implies that a penalty to a non-racing boat under 22.1 is possible. However I've never heard of a protest under 22.1 and the ISAF case book does not have any relevant cases either. I think the helm of the offending boat should buy the other helm a beer and that is all. "Fair sailing" is highly unlikely to come into this. An example of where it might is turning back after you have finished and deliberately sailing someone close to you in the series back down the fleet. Successful "fail sailing" protests are extremely rare. |
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CurlyBen
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Joined: 17 Aug 05 Location: Southampton Online Status: Offline Posts: 539 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 7:04pm |
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When are you no longer under racing rules then? I don't have the rule
book to hand but in most regattas I've sailed they only apply from one
minute before the start, and I can see no way a person not under racing
rules can be penalised for breaking them - that's like breaking the
laws of another country! I would imagine that any penalty would have to
be written into the Sailing Instructions, as these apply at all times,
not just whilst racing (I think).
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Stefan Lloyd
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Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 7:22pm |
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The rules start applying well before one minute before the start and still apply after you have finished. Read the preamble to part 2. The part 2 rules ("when boats meet") apply when you are in or near the race area and intend to race, are racing or have been racing. So although "racing" normally means from the preparatory signal until you finish, the rules apply once you are in the race area and "intend to race" and still apply until you leave the race area. So for example, you can be penalised for fouling a boat in another class which is racing when you are not. This situation happens in big keelboat regattas quite often; you are hanging around between races but other classes are racing on the same bit of water. Racing rules apply to you even though you are not presently racing. |
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CurlyBen
Really should get out more
Joined: 17 Aug 05 Location: Southampton Online Status: Offline Posts: 539 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 7:34pm |
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Thanks, that changes things a bit! As I say at most of the regattas
I've sailed in (and they've all been school sailing, where things are a
bit different) part of the sailing instructions has been that the
racing rules apply from one minute before the start. This is a bit more
applicable in team racing where it's useful to chase people before the
start to give your team better positioning, and things like proper
course don't apply. I'd go and find my rule book but it's packed for
moving house tomorrow! I suppose in this case it may be possible to
give the infringing boat a points penalty? That I guess would have to
be from a SI rather than the rules as they don't mention it.
Edited by CurlyBen |
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Ralph T
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Joined: 20 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 36 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 05 at 8:45pm |
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Rule 86.1 covers what racing rules can be changed & not even the RYA can change Part 2! I run lots of schools & junior events (including fleet & team racing) & have never found it necessary to change when the racing rules come into effect. You may wish to bring Rule 86.1 to the attention of the organisers of your events but do it diplomatically as adults don't take too kindly to being told they are wrong by younger people (even if they do know more than the adult |
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