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Foils, Foiling & stuff..

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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Foils, Foiling & stuff..
    Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 11:54am
1st Question, how do those AC72's self level? I think I get how the Moths do it with a wand connected to a flap on the trailing edge of the lead foil and I'm going to guess there is a twist grip controlling the rear?

So has a totally self levelling system eluded the foiling world so far? It all seems very complicated to me, but having caught up with the AC series on iplayer last night, I'm totally hooked, wondering about jacking the V2 up on foils how mad would that be? As a twin hander maybe it seems the perfect platform to experiment without the worry about pitchpoling.

So there must be equations regarding the foil size and lift to weight ratio, those AC things may be light for their size but they must still weigh a fair old bit and far greater minds and computer wizardry must be at play.

Moths only weigh about 35 kgs all up so don't need a big foil, the twin's big let down is it's weight which must be north of 85 kgs all up so will it be just a simple calculation of three times the foil area of a moth I wonder, then, who would you go to, to help with such a project?

Lots to ponder about.



Edited by iGRF - 18 Sep 13 at 11:56am
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hum3 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hum3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:00pm
AFAIK The AC72 have two methods of controlling height:
 
1) Self control - this is via the V shape main foil. As it lifts out of the water, the lifting surface reduces. They look L shaped when retracted, but that's down to the curved board shape.
 
2) Manual control - there are guys on eack boat who can manually adjust the rake of the main foils, thus changing lift. They do this through manouvers.
 
The rudders are a fixed rake for racing, but can but adjusted up to 5 mins before the race, to suit conditions.
 
EDIT - there is probably a whole load of aero stuff going on as well which helps control lift (just look at the rear beams of both boats) but I'm not expert.


Edited by hum3 - 18 Sep 13 at 12:08pm
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:02pm
It might pay to include the weight of the crew?
 
I think the foil area is also a function of take-off speed.
I've got the book about Icarus the foiling cat somewhere, it's not very technical but shows what can be done using basic technology. Worth a read IMHO.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by hum3

AFAIK The AC72 have two methods of controlling height:
 
1) Self control - this is via the V shape mail foil. As it lifts out of the water, the lifting surface reduces. They look L shaped when retracted, but that's down to the curved board shape.
 
2) Manual control - there are guys on eack boat who can manually adjust the rake of the main foils, thus changing lift. They do this through manouvers.
 
The rudders are a fixed rake for racing, but can but adjusted up to 5 mins before the race, to suit conditions.
 
No auto control like the wands on Moths?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hum3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

No auto control like the wands on Moths?
 
No - not allowed by the rules, hence the genius of the TNZ design team for finding a way to foil in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:13pm
I don't think the ferries have wand control either, they rely on inefficient surface piercing foils with dihedral.
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tgruitt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by hum3

AFAIK The AC72 have two methods of controlling height:
 
1) Self control - this is via the V shape main foil. As it lifts out of the water, the lifting surface reduces. They look L shaped when retracted, but that's down to the curved board shape.
 
2) Manual control - there are guys on eack boat who can manually adjust the rake of the main foils, thus changing lift. They do this through manouvers.
 
The rudders are a fixed rake for racing, but can but adjusted up to 5 mins before the race, to suit conditions.
 
EDIT - there is probably a whole load of aero stuff going on as well which helps control lift (just look at the rear beams of both boats) but I'm not expert.


Yep that's how they seem to do it.

Don't forget GRF, 3 times the foil size and 3 times the drag, your rig is probably pretty dragtastic too. I think you will need it down to Cherub weight to foil, one of them is using a RS600 hydrofoil kit... Might be a good starter? Or are you going down the AC72 route and having one on each side?


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Munter View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Munter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:43pm
The kiwi solution is a bit more clever than has been pointed out so far. Not only does the foil reduce lift as it approaches the surface but it apparently also reduces lift as it makes more leeway because leeway reduces the angle of attack on the lateral portion of the foil. Which of the two effects is contributing more to the ride leveling isn't widely known yet though I bet the ac designers have a pretty good handle on it.

Of course all this is supplemented by manual control which makes relatively large changes to the whole foil angle when necessary. It's a very interesting example of the constraints of a rule forcing innovation.
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AlexM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AlexM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:44pm
Check out the C Class for their wiggly boards which change the rake (auto I think with pressure on the foil)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by AlexM

Check out the C Class for their wiggly boards which change the rake (auto I think with pressure on the foil)


I was going to say the same, I think the C Class boards are even cleverer!
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