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L123456 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 May 13 at 8:40am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by blueboy

I think we've just demonstrated that boats for the Worlds are not subsidised.

I think we haven't.

I think the worlds boats is a non issue. They all get sold after the event at a discount which is less than the charter fee. The worlds boats are probably the most profitable boats built for Laser. 
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 13 at 8:38am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by blueboy

I think we've just demonstrated that boats for the Worlds are not subsidised.

I think we haven't.


I think we have demonstrated that they might be, or maybe they aren't, or, actually, we really don't know...
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 13 at 8:11am
Originally posted by blueboy

I think we've just demonstrated that boats for the Worlds are not subsidised.

I think we haven't.
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 13 at 7:38am
Originally posted by Chris 249


That equates to 20 hours of hire at Queen Mary SC hourly rates, and I assume that QMSC is not hiring out new or one-regatta-old boats. Sure, it's not strictly comparable


It's not comparable in the slightest. QMSC carries the cost of their stock of boats 12 months a year, during most of which there is no demand. Laser carries the cost of Worlds charter boats for a few weeks, in which period they are pulling in £800 in charter fee.

$1900 for a Tasar for a week is, in commercial terms, daylight robbery. You could charter a yacht for that.
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Posts: 512 		Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 13 at 7:28am
Originally posted by JimC

Except that all that stuff, the worlds with subsidised boats


I think we've just demonstrated that boats for the Worlds are not subsidised.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by PeterG

a totally unjustifiable subsidy of World and National events onto the majority of Laser purchasers who will never take part


Except that all that stuff, the worlds with subsidised boats, the big advertising budget, the very tight rules, all the other things all help promote the class, made and make it popular, keep the second hand values up and in general benefits every Laser sailor who wants that stuff instead of a dozen now extinct nearly identical classes which were cheaper without all those intangibles to pay for...


Exactly, without the international profile, the Laser would have just been another singlehander.
Although I do think it has some merits over most of the 'me too' singlehanders. It is somehow a 'better' boat in lots of wind and waves or very light winds than most of them, even I'm sailing one.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by PeterG

a totally unjustifiable subsidy of World and National events onto the majority of Laser purchasers who will never take part


Except that all that stuff, the worlds with subsidised boats, the big advertising budget, the very tight rules, all the other things all help promote the class, made and make it popular, keep the second hand values up and in general benefits every Laser sailor who wants that stuff instead of a dozen now extinct nearly identical classes which were cheaper without all those intangibles to pay for...
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by JimC

I suggest though that the chances of the Torch class allowing replica sails are exactly zero. My reading is that Kirby wants to rescue the traditional model of how the Laser class works, not destroy it.


Why is it about what St Bruce wants, rather than what the sailors want?
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 5:53pm
That equates to 20 hours of hire at Queen Mary SC hourly rates, and I assume that QMSC is not hiring out new or one-regatta-old boats. Sure, it's not strictly comparable but that runs both ways - QMSC are not delivering the boats and they are used. So that worlds charter fee seems to be a reasonable rate rather than extortion.

I'm not arguing that there's anything extortionate about the charter rates. What I am arguing is that I don't see either any major subsidy from the manufacturers in there, or any justification for it if there were.

In terms of the charter rates, you also have to remember that the boats will be sold on for a good (nearly new) price afterwards. So, yes there may be some transportation costs, but they won't be massive, in relation to annual turnover.

Remember Rooster (and others) can produce a good quality sail and sell it for over £200 less than Laser do. Rooster's profit margin may not be large, but I'm sure Steve doesn't sell them at a loss, and he will be shifting far fewer sails, so doesn't have the economies of scale production the official sails should have. So either LPE etc are a spectacularly badly run and inefficient businesses (quite possible) or they are lumping a totally unjustifiable subsidy of World and National events onto the majority of Laser purchasers who will never take part (which I doubt), or they are taking a truly remarkable profit margin on at least some of what they are selling.
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by JimC

I suggest though that the chances of the Torch class allowing replica sails are exactly zero. My reading is that Kirby wants to rescue the traditional model of how the Laser class works, not destroy it.

but in the interim they are asking for folks to download the logos, take them to graphic houses / sail lofts etc, get them cut and applied to sails.... this is probably a window of opportunity to buy some sails cheap, brand them up and then have them grandfathered into the torch class once 'legal' supply chains are put in place for the new class association... if it materialises of course.
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