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scotsfinn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote scotsfinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Wiki Sail by GRF
    Posted: 25 Mar 13 at 9:57pm
Dear Mr GRF, After seeing Blaze's Post on our iCON thread in defence of your sensitvie nature I had a serious pang (albeit a short one) of conscience; so I have taken time out of my busy schedule (and iCON bimbling) and created a custom thread especially for you - This is the place for you to give us all the benefit of your knowledge, skills and undoubted superior knowledge of all things sailing.
By creating this thread I hope to save Forumites hours of trawling the site looking for "GRFGEMS" and all the pearls of sailing wisdom that have become such a focus of the Y&Y Forum
Please keep up the high standards - you are of such undoubted value to the sailing community - you deserve your own pitch
 
Hope you  feel really appreciated Clap
 
Starter for 10 = why doesn't the EPS have a spinnaker and foils and a sawn off bow?
Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744
www.blueseaconsultingllp.com
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 13 at 10:11pm
I've had an epiphany recently and understand how and why y'all are always wrong, and I'm right most of the time.

The problem stems from the fact that pretty much 90 percent of you have learned to sail whilst quite young, from your parents and in some cases from their parents, so, the 50's metal bath in front of a coal fire whilst the mirror dinghy is being built on the kitchen table mentality has been passed down, some might say inbred to y'all.

So, it's not your fault, don't need to feel guilty, you've been bred wrong in the first place, all thse things that go on, were forced upon you.

So, I try to be sensitive and not use big none sailing world terms, like common sense and logical, realising that it is totally wasted.

On the other hand, every now and then just pause and accept me as your saviour

And everything will be just fine between us.

OK?

Edited by iGRF - 25 Mar 13 at 10:25pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 13 at 10:20pm
Oh and the starter for ten which I missed?

I'll type it slowly cos I know you can't read fast.

The Laser EPS I'm told was supposed to be a modern take on the original Laser, which,
er didn't have a spinnaker either.
Then I guess Topper copied it and came out with the Blaze.

But the Blaze is a bigger and more stable boat because rather than build something new, they (the design genii at Topper), just cut a bit off an International 14, that well known supporter of big spinnakers.

Ergo the Blaze shape was meant to have a spinnaker, the EPS wasn't.

From what i can tell from stuff I've picked up reading this place.

Everything you need to know about sailing is contained in this place

And most of it is wrong.

Edited by iGRF - 25 Mar 13 at 10:20pm
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scotsfinn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote scotsfinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 13 at 10:40pm
GRF Wrong .... how un-WiKi Like ... I am feeling worried now Confused
 
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Starter for 10 = why doesn't the EPS have a spinnaker and foils and a sawn off bow?
 
Surely Forum team could test out all of the above (GRF as PM of course) and report back - would two hulls be better than foils - two EPS's welded together ...... I seem to remember a brand new boat modelled on a similar idea, but it only had one rig - now twin rigs must increase windspeed through the slot ... ergo More Speed ...
 
Before I go out and purchase the basic requirements and cut the fronts off them - do you think I have a good plan - I was thinking of calling it the EPSVII-Solo2HD (Solos go very well under PY, which I am sure is a function of the Wardrobe-like technology)
 
Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744
www.blueseaconsultingllp.com
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Telltale View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Telltale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 13 at 10:53pm
Now there is a question! Would 2 x 6m2 sails ie one on each hull of the V twin, deliver the same power as one 12 m2 sail? If it did would it be easier to handle? I guess no as wind velocity is greater the higher you go, and one sail would be obviously taller. Interesting, GRF must have knowledge of this, they have tandem boards after all!
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2547 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 8:19am
Tell us about your discovery of perpetual motion and revalations on buoyancy. That is usually good for a laugh. 

Edited by 2547 - 26 Mar 13 at 8:24am
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 8:53am
It's a magic carpet ... (And probably not the first time GRF's got 'a lad in')


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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 8:56am
Two sails have never been faster than one in my world simply because the riders are tandem one behind the other and because the lead rider stays forward, weight can't be shifted back far enough to completely release the board. Therefore the wetted area causes too much drag as I'm sure you are already aware.

There are also two kinds of fast we tend to talk about, fast across the water, drag strip fast speed in knots etc, then there's fast round a course. Boards obey exactly the same rules as dinghies but tend to have more efficient rigs in that being able to cant them to weather they support the rider weight more than a rig which tilts to leeward and spills wind. Foiling moths are now using this technique upwind.

So, it could technically be possible for two sails to be fast or as fast as one in a round the cans scenario, but to date I've not experienced it, which begs the question why do boats have jibs and why are boats with jibs faster than those without? Two Independent rigs on a saiboard have to have two masts and two booms so maybe that's why, but my theory is that it is because of the lowering of the aspect ratio of the rig that does it.

At displacement speeds it's been my experience that long chorded low aspect sails are faster than higher aspect short chorded rigs and the reverse is true in faster planing situations, the reason is couched in complex lift drag calculations that it would be boring and tedious to go into and you wouldn't understand anyway, it's just true, accept it. So a jib combines with the main to produce a very low aspect and extra long chord which works very efficiently in low winds to produce more power with little heeling moment.

Two windsurfing rigs never quite act in the same way, for a start they can't be fully sheeted in since they act to steer the craft and if you are front man on a Tandem and sheet right in the craft just goes into a continual bear away, and if you're the rear man it just head up, so the tendency has to be to balance the sails the one in front being small and the one on the back larger, and you can never quite get them balanced going to weather. I once raced a tandem round Hayling Island back in the day with another very good racing sailboarder, and with another guy we took one across the Channel, so we did spend a fair amount of time on tandems trying to make them work, but never could quite dial them.

So there, I hope you are all duly enlightened.

The twin ESPS's wouldn't work either, but the reason for that is an entire other marathon post.

Bupyancy - rule of thumb, one litre of buoyancy is required for one kilo of crew weight so if your crew weighs 160 kgs then just to support them your boat needs 160 litres volume, to go fast it needs that on top of the reserve buoyancy necessary to support the boat weight, so 100 kgs weight, + 160 kgs crew, 260 litres minimum.

Yet none of you even know what the volume displacement of your boat is now do you?
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johnreekie1980 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote johnreekie1980 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 10:01am

Your maths does not stack up. Having windsurfed I am well aware of the light wind properties of a wave board that whilst technically meets you buoyancy formula above would be a dog in 5 knots of wind. I think you need to consult a naval architect before designing your next craft. Following your logic some bright minds in sailing should have made the latest americas cup cats to your formula. Unfortunately they have all slipped up an added significantly more buoyancy. Maybe you should go stateside to educate them.  

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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 10:06am
I'm not sure there is ANY windsurf board that would be anything other than a complete mutt in 5 knots of wind.  Even the big barges Graeme raced were/are horrid... Starboard have even added a 'batwing' to their latest race board.  It is designed to improve planing performance, in truth, it's just something to make the board look a bit different to give folks who use them on windless lakes near Nottingham something to actually talk about.... the sailing sucks that much.
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