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   Correct.
From my experience the heel is more important in lighter winds, as the wind comes up and you go faster the foils have more "bite" meaning the boat tracks straighter giving less lee helm, and obviously you sail much lower meaning no need to stuff it as high to keep you out.
It's quite wierd though the first time you get big lee helm, the automatic reaction is to push the stick away which means even more pressure through the stick, The correct thing seems to be to just bend your knees, so the boat heels and cancels the lee helm.  No idea if anyone else does this, just seems to work for us.
Chris 249, am I right in saying that a few of the antipodean 12s are getting a bit more "chiney" again?  With this design (slug) you drag a wing a bit in the light stuff but as soon as it's going it seems to be just fine...

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Iain C Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1113	Post Options Post Reply Quote Iain C Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Favourite Photos Posted: 09 Jul 07 at 7:50am
	Correct. From my experience the heel is more important in lighter winds, as the wind comes up and you go faster the foils have more "bite" meaning the boat tracks straighter giving less lee helm, and obviously you sail much lower meaning no need to stuff it as high to keep you out. It's quite wierd though the first time you get big lee helm, the automatic reaction is to push the stick away which means even more pressure through the stick, The correct thing seems to be to just bend your knees, so the boat heels and cancels the lee helm. No idea if anyone else does this, just seems to work for us. Chris 249, am I right in saying that a few of the antipodean 12s are getting a bit more "chiney" again? With this design (slug) you drag a wing a bit in the light stuff but as soon as it's going it seems to be just fine...
	RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"

Jack Sparrow Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 08 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2965	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jack Sparrow Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jul 07 at 9:52am
	how's your new one going Iain? I hope it's going to be called 'chicken shack' after its illustrious beginnings! but seriously how is it going?
	Farr 3.7 Class Website Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group

Iain C Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1113	Post Options Post Reply Quote Iain C Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jul 07 at 10:00am
	To be honest Cap'n we have not really done anything to her yet, she is still just a shell...we're still finalising the design, there's been far too much wind recently for any boat building! Probably really get going on her in September, I think she will actaully start to come together quite quickly, the design is so "tubey".
	RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"

a_stevo Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Groupie Joined: 29 Aug 05 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 72	Post Options Post Reply Quote a_stevo Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jul 07 at 10:01am
	there are a few new 'chiney' 12's around but mostly woofs, like 'grumble and grunt' in the UK, and probably an equal number of older boats liek Havoc. i sail on one just like that. the newst rage is the narrow low drag hulls, there have beena couple of attempts in aus, but the kiwis have done them recently in the R-class ( restricted sail area 12, much like the UK cherub rules). there are a few boats being built with a stepped chine in NZ now. see the australian 12 message board, and pictures on the kiw r-class webpage

Iain C Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1113	Post Options Post Reply Quote Iain C Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jul 07 at 11:57am
	With my limited experience of 12s so far, I think that the Woof seems to be very easy to sail hull wise compared to a chined boat, you can get away with driving it very hard downwind in waves and it just gets on with it. Sailing on Southampton water I stepped into the boat from a RIB and got on with it, normally on a Cherub I'm always looking at the nose and trying to pick my way through the waves, within about 30 seconds of getting in the Woof I'd stopped that and was just enjoying the sail! I can imagine for sailing in Sydney harbour and the like with big wind and big waves it's perfect. When it's planing flat in medium winds it looks a bit odd, it's only when it really starts jumping around that it looks really in it's element, and I think you would really, really struggle with a more Cherubby looking boat. I think for inland waters and lower winds though there is a big speed advantage for having something a little flatter and harder to sail, but be prepared for plenty swimming if the wind comes up!
	RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"

andy_cherub Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 16 Mar 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 768	Post Options Post Reply Quote andy_cherub Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jul 07 at 12:29pm
	Bango Iain - spot on!! Since owning my 12, I can safely say Aqua would not of worked with this much rag!! But a happy medium between the two may be the way forward once ive learnt how to sail the beast. Havoc is slightly harder to sail than Grumble I have to say - Grumble is uber stable and very forgiving, Havoc you have to work a bit harder but then seems to be just that little bit faster in the light stuff compared to grumble. Perhaps just simply the water seperation from the chines. A cheruby ish hull would prob be faster than the 12's in the lighter, flatter stuff due to less hull resistance etc - but then James tried it in OZ - gave up and put on a new hull! Is it the L3 which is quite narrow?? I remember last nationals in Aqua no3 rig pacing grumble upwind in the light stuff with their no1 up - but as soon as they got the kite up waved bye bye!! But, a Slug on its ear, cant be fast................. & yer - sailing the 12 on its ear downwind espec in light winds with the 60m kite up and not planning - arg! but as the wind is No2 rig sailed fairly upright, then No3 rig back on its ear!! But upwind you bring the boat right over ontop of you - still getting used to it as your feet start comming away from the hull, so need both of them in the foot loops! practice practice practice!!!! The Aqua strap foot loops are very good indeed! Easy to get your foot in and out when you want, and once in - stays in!!!
	-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jul 07 at 1:54pm
	Its a very different design route really... Most current Cherubs were designed when the class was a moderate sail area boat, in which case low drag is everything, and a sufficiently talented crew can sail the boat bolt upright all the time to take advantage of that. To back that up note that AndyP won a lot of championships partly through sailing the boat less than fully powered up downwind so that the boat was going deeper and slower, but perfectly balanced to minimise the drag on a very sensitive boat. It seems to me that if you powered up in the moderate stuff you tended to lee helm and fighting the boat, which is slow with a moderate rig. The Twelve on the other hand is an entirely different game of soldiers with entirely different requirements. You've got brute force in spades, so the challenge is handling the power, and being able to handle the power at all sorts of angles. So therefore you get an entirely different hull shape.

mike ellis Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 30 Dec 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2339	Post Options Post Reply Quote mike ellis Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jul 07 at 6:42pm
	heres one, im the crew on the second boat back, red kite http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/?s=64&PID=21661
	600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318

Medway Maniac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788	Post Options Post Reply Quote Medway Maniac Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jul 07 at 7:49pm
	Mixing it in an older boat with the Winders - well done!
	Wilsonian SC 3000 Class

Splosh Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 13 May 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 497	Post Options Post Reply Quote Splosh Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jul 07 at 8:27pm
	I really like the sails on the fireball's, they look awsome at speed!! is your fireball wooden? if so it's good to see wood beating some fibreglass ones... or are you being lapped only joking well done its looks great!
	RS300 - 346 :D