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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Jul 07 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by ChrisJ

The fact that the other boat caused it to collapse because of its wind-shadow in no way changes what my proper course would be from this point onwards.

When you try that out on a Protest committeee let us know what the results are. But I were the PC you'd be scoring DSQ.
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ChrisJ View Drop Down
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Posts: 337 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 07 at 4:04pm

IF the other boat wasn't there, I WOULD need to luff 20 degrees!

Here I am, with a stalled out asym kite, and the only way of getting it to fill is to luff. It is all very proper.

 

The fact that the other boat caused it to collapse because of its wind-shadow in no way changes what my proper course would be from this point onwards.

Now, my "best course" might have been to go to windward of the boat that caused the wind-shadow; but my "proper course" doesn't require that.

 
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Originally posted by andymck

Originally posted by ChrisJ

Different asymetrics sail differently. And they sail differently in just a very slight difference in wind strength / wave.

You can be soaking low (boat leant to windward, kite on the verge of collapsing, bearing away well) and this course takes you to leeward of another boat. As soon as you get to leeward of them, the wind swirl of their sails is enough to collapse the kite. It is NOT possible to get it filling again on the same angle, you have to head up by 20 degrees to get it filling again. So sailing to leeward of someone, then luffing as soon as you are there is ALL perfectly "proper course".

 

The same happens with a symetrical kite, and a boat without a kite, its called a wind shadow. As the definition of proper course is in the absence of other boats, and hence the windshadow, I dont believe you are entitled to luff those 20 degrees just because you have an assym kite.

 

Absence of other boats, but no mention of the wind shadow.

Proper course in these downwind Asym cases is basically a function of wind speed and direction, this is what controls proper course.  The rules mention the course in absence of the other boat, but not the other boats wind shadow. 

I believe that the rule is worded so that you cannot justify a proper course to position yourself relative to another boat for tacktical reasons (claiming proper course to luff another boat as this would be the fastest way to the next mark WITH THE OITHER BOAT PRESENT. 

 

Be interested if there is a case on this one.  I'm too tired to check now and I', getting up in 5 1/2 hours time....   
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andymck View Drop Down
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 07 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by ChrisJ

Different asymetrics sail differently. And they sail differently in just a very slight difference in wind strength / wave.

You can be soaking low (boat leant to windward, kite on the verge of collapsing, bearing away well) and this course takes you to leeward of another boat. As soon as you get to leeward of them, the wind swirl of their sails is enough to collapse the kite. It is NOT possible to get it filling again on the same angle, you have to head up by 20 degrees to get it filling again. So sailing to leeward of someone, then luffing as soon as you are there is ALL perfectly "proper course".

 

The same happens with a symetrical kite, and a boat without a kite, its called a wind shadow. As the definition of proper course is in the absence of other boats, and hence the windshadow, I dont believe you are entitled to luff those 20 degrees just because you have an assym kite.
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Posts: 337 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 9:20pm

Different asymetrics sail differently. And they sail differently in just a very slight difference in wind strength / wave.

You can be soaking low (boat leant to windward, kite on the verge of collapsing, bearing away well) and this course takes you to leeward of another boat. As soon as you get to leeward of them, the wind swirl of their sails is enough to collapse the kite. It is NOT possible to get it filling again on the same angle, you have to head up by 20 degrees to get it filling again. So sailing to leeward of someone, then luffing as soon as you are there is ALL perfectly "proper course".
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by andymck

So what you are saying is that a boat with an assymetric spinny does not have to comply to the proper course rule. Because whatever their course prior to any interaction with a windward boat, they can then justify "luffing" onto a higher course, within reason, because its almost imposible for anyone to know what their proper course is!

Even when for a significant period while sailing down the same leg, they had not felt the need to sail higher than the direct course between the marks!

I must admit that I am sure that this is not within the spirit of the rules, or even within the way they are written.

As for soaking low, there are probably more assymetrics that do well when going low in sub planing conditions, than high, even done that in an 18

 

Ahhh, not so; I read the situation thus:

Fast Asym boat is coming up behind a slower boat on "powered up proper course" and then dives under another boat (for tactical reasons) and then resumes "proper course".

 

In the example you give above, I would say that the Asym boat would struggle to justify the new higher course as "proper" unless other things had also changed (even a small lull can make a large difference is "proper course").  UNLESS they could argue that they felt that they might not lay the mark (they could see more wind ahead) and so the proper course was to try and sail high and then drive off on the gust (remeber the definition of proper couse is the fastest course to get to the mark).  Having to drop the kite is slow to lay a mark.......
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 8:50pm

So what you are saying is that a boat with an assymetric spinny does not have to comply to the proper course rule. Because whatever their course prior to any interaction with a windward boat, they can then justify "luffing" onto a higher course, within reason, because its almost imposible for anyone to know what their proper course is!

Even when for a significant period while sailing down the same leg, they had not felt the need to sail higher than the direct course between the marks!

I must admit that I am sure that this is not within the spirit of the rules, or even within the way they are written.

As for soaking low, there are probably more assymetrics that do well when going low in sub planing conditions, than high, even done that in an 18
Andy Mck
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Also remember that "proper course" is a course that a boat can justify as the fastest course to the next mark. 

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.

"In the absence of other boats" is a key qualification.

But you only have to justify "proper couse" once other rules require you to do so.  You can sail any course you like to get you into a good position because the "proper course" burden has not started to apply (yet).

Yes the definition is as you say.  But only when  the is the burden within the rules to sail your proper course. 

As for justifying the proper course, in fast boats like 49ers and Kite cats, high is almost always faster than going low and slow in anything except a complete drifter ! 

 
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 10:56am

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Also remember that "proper course" is a course that a boat can justify as the fastest course to the next mark. 

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.

"In the absence of other boats" is a key qualification.
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 10:54am

Originally posted by andymck

I still find it hard to believe that a reasonable protest committee would not ask the assym boat to justify its new course, 20 degrees above its previous course, which it had sailed for the previous approx mile of the given leg. Esp that this was a yacht race, in well below planing conditions, where even assymetrics have to soak low, to maintain max vmg.

I don't think anyone has said that. Your original question was whether a boat could sail below proper course to establish an overlap and then sail proper course. You weren't previously asserting that the other boat was sailing above proper course once the overlap was established.

As to whether a course is "proper course", that's another question. In a protest, I believe it is W who would need to prove that L was sailing above proper course and that is often hard to do. 

 
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