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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Jun 07 at 10:21pm

Proper course on applies when the rules say it is needed. 

because there are no rules applying before the asym goes low (to then come back up and claim proper course) they are doing nothing wrong.  They are positioning their boat to be in a better tactical position and then claim thier proper course rights. 

 

Also remember that "proper course" is a course that a boat can justify as the fastest course to the next mark. 

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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 07 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by andymck

As for sailing low to prevent them from going below you, unless the rules have changed since I was umpiring, unfortunaltly ISAF site not working to check, if a boat is sailing a course to go below you, you cant sail below your proper course unless you then gybe.

You can until they have an overlap or doing do would cause them to run into the back of you.
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Adam MR 1137 View Drop Down
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Posts: 114 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Adam MR 1137 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 07 at 11:19pm

Hi,

Iam fairly new to racing and would like to start going to open meetings, aswell racing more at my club. I am hesitant to do so until my understanding of the rules is much better than it is at the moment.

On that note are there any particular books you would reccommend for learning the rules?

Adam
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andymck View Drop Down
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 1:40am

There are a few rule books with explanations, the us sailing has the basics well set out in some videos as well. The modifications of elvstroms book were always good.

 
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andymck View Drop Down
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 1:55am
Originally posted by Garry

Originally posted by andymck

As for sailing low to prevent them from going below you, unless the rules have changed since I was umpiring, unfortunaltly ISAF site not working to check, if a boat is sailing a course to go below you, you cant sail below your proper course unless you then gybe.

You can until they have an overlap or doing do would cause them to run into the back of you.

I take it that rule 17.2 has been scrapped from the last set then? Current set still not downloading!

I still find it hard to believe that a reasonable protest committee would not ask the assym boat to justify its new course, 20 degrees above its previous course, which it had sailed for the previous approx mile of the given leg. Esp that this was a yacht race, in well below planing conditions, where even assymetrics have to soak low, to maintain max vmg.

I think If i was the helm of the assymetric i would have great difficulty justifying it, even with polar plots.

 

Andy
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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 9:41am
Originally posted by Adam MR 1137

Hi,

Iam fairly new to racing and would like to start going to open meetings, aswell racing more at my club. I am hesitant to do so until my understanding of the rules is much better than it is at the moment.

On that note are there any particular books you would reccommend for learning the rules?

Adam

Adam, you don't need a great understanding to start racing, just some basics and some common sense.  opposite tacks, windward, passing marks and obstructions and the ones around starting.  If you are a subscriber to Yachts & Yachting then there was a good beginner article about the rules.  You can download it from the subscribers section of this website.  I have Bryan Willis the rules in practice which is good and a reasonable price.  The RYA has a basic handbook for about £2.80.

Andy, a protest committee would certainly explore the Assy course and what they were sailing before and after - but would you want to risk not keeping clear on that basis?
Garry

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Garry

Originally posted by andymck

As for sailing low to prevent them from going below you, unless the rules have changed since I was umpiring, unfortunaltly ISAF site not working to check, if a boat is sailing a course to go below you, you cant sail below your proper course unless you then gybe.

You can until they have an overlap or doing do would cause them to run into the back of you.

As andymckk has said, not if they are closer than 2BL.

17.2 Except on a beat to windward, while a boat is less than two of her hull lengths from a leeward boat or a boat clear astern steering a course to leeward of her, she shall not sail below her proper course unless she gybes.

 



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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 10:54am

Originally posted by andymck

I still find it hard to believe that a reasonable protest committee would not ask the assym boat to justify its new course, 20 degrees above its previous course, which it had sailed for the previous approx mile of the given leg. Esp that this was a yacht race, in well below planing conditions, where even assymetrics have to soak low, to maintain max vmg.

I don't think anyone has said that. Your original question was whether a boat could sail below proper course to establish an overlap and then sail proper course. You weren't previously asserting that the other boat was sailing above proper course once the overlap was established.

As to whether a course is "proper course", that's another question. In a protest, I believe it is W who would need to prove that L was sailing above proper course and that is often hard to do. 

 
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 10:56am

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Also remember that "proper course" is a course that a boat can justify as the fastest course to the next mark. 

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.

"In the absence of other boats" is a key qualification.
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Also remember that "proper course" is a course that a boat can justify as the fastest course to the next mark. 

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term.

"In the absence of other boats" is a key qualification.

But you only have to justify "proper couse" once other rules require you to do so.  You can sail any course you like to get you into a good position because the "proper course" burden has not started to apply (yet).

Yes the definition is as you say.  But only when  the is the burden within the rules to sail your proper course. 

As for justifying the proper course, in fast boats like 49ers and Kite cats, high is almost always faster than going low and slow in anything except a complete drifter ! 

 
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