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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Garry

Originally posted by andymck

As for sailing low to prevent them from going below you, unless the rules have changed since I was umpiring, unfortunaltly ISAF site not working to check, if a boat is sailing a course to go below you, you cant sail below your proper course unless you then gybe.

You can until they have an overlap or doing do would cause them to run into the back of you.

As andymckk has said, not if they are closer than 2BL.

17.2 Except on a beat to windward, while a boat is less than two of her hull lengths from a leeward boat or a boat clear astern steering a course to leeward of her, she shall not sail below her proper course unless she gybes.

 



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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 9:41am
Originally posted by Adam MR 1137

Hi,

Iam fairly new to racing and would like to start going to open meetings, aswell racing more at my club. I am hesitant to do so until my understanding of the rules is much better than it is at the moment.

On that note are there any particular books you would reccommend for learning the rules?

Adam

Adam, you don't need a great understanding to start racing, just some basics and some common sense.  opposite tacks, windward, passing marks and obstructions and the ones around starting.  If you are a subscriber to Yachts & Yachting then there was a good beginner article about the rules.  You can download it from the subscribers section of this website.  I have Bryan Willis the rules in practice which is good and a reasonable price.  The RYA has a basic handbook for about £2.80.

Andy, a protest committee would certainly explore the Assy course and what they were sailing before and after - but would you want to risk not keeping clear on that basis?
Garry

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andymck View Drop Down
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 1:55am
Originally posted by Garry

Originally posted by andymck

As for sailing low to prevent them from going below you, unless the rules have changed since I was umpiring, unfortunaltly ISAF site not working to check, if a boat is sailing a course to go below you, you cant sail below your proper course unless you then gybe.

You can until they have an overlap or doing do would cause them to run into the back of you.

I take it that rule 17.2 has been scrapped from the last set then? Current set still not downloading!

I still find it hard to believe that a reasonable protest committee would not ask the assym boat to justify its new course, 20 degrees above its previous course, which it had sailed for the previous approx mile of the given leg. Esp that this was a yacht race, in well below planing conditions, where even assymetrics have to soak low, to maintain max vmg.

I think If i was the helm of the assymetric i would have great difficulty justifying it, even with polar plots.

 

Andy
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 07 at 1:40am

There are a few rule books with explanations, the us sailing has the basics well set out in some videos as well. The modifications of elvstroms book were always good.

 
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Adam MR 1137 View Drop Down
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Posts: 114 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Adam MR 1137 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 07 at 11:19pm

Hi,

Iam fairly new to racing and would like to start going to open meetings, aswell racing more at my club. I am hesitant to do so until my understanding of the rules is much better than it is at the moment.

On that note are there any particular books you would reccommend for learning the rules?

Adam
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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 07 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by andymck

As for sailing low to prevent them from going below you, unless the rules have changed since I was umpiring, unfortunaltly ISAF site not working to check, if a boat is sailing a course to go below you, you cant sail below your proper course unless you then gybe.

You can until they have an overlap or doing do would cause them to run into the back of you.
Garry

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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 07 at 10:21pm

Proper course on applies when the rules say it is needed. 

because there are no rules applying before the asym goes low (to then come back up and claim proper course) they are doing nothing wrong.  They are positioning their boat to be in a better tactical position and then claim thier proper course rights. 

 

Also remember that "proper course" is a course that a boat can justify as the fastest course to the next mark. 

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andymck View Drop Down
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 07 at 9:21pm

The situation has arrised on both occaisions with the boat never sailing above the direct course to the mark, until in the wind shadow. As when no other boats were around them, they did not feel the need to go above the direct course, how can they then jusify it when they then are interacting with another boat?

As both incidents occured in the last quarter of the leg, I find it hard to believe that you can claim proper course in this situation. Otherwise they would have gone well above the direct course earlier, and gybed back in, and may have had to give water to the boats on the direct course. I doubt we would allow any symmetrical kited boat to do this, even though some, eg 505 could argue the higher and faster point.

As for sailing low to prevent them from going below you, unless the rules have changed since I was umpiring, unfortunaltly ISAF site not working to check, if a boat is sailing a course to go below you, you cant sail below your proper course unless you then gybe.

 

 
Andy Mck
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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 07 at 8:13pm
A significant point worth making on proper course is that its the course you would steer in the absence of other boats.  Therefore if you don't have luffing rights you can not go higher than you would if the windward boat wasn't there.  Andy the assymetric is probably not infringing this rule.  The solution is to go low as they go low (do this early enough so you're not preventing them from keeping clear, thus preventing the overlap, bear up then and come into the mark at a hotter angle and having the option just before the 2bl point to do a quick luff and break any overlap.  There must have been a Y&Y article on this in the last couple of years and its described rather neatly in mark Rushall's latest book.
Garry

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 07 at 9:36am

Originally posted by andymck

Given that it was their choice to go below, and therefore sail below the course to the next mark, can they then claim that their proper course is then well above the next mark, given that if that was the case, they should have gone above me in the first place?

Yes they can. If they are L with an overlap, they can sail their proper course. As JimC said, they are not obliged to sail their proper course in ordert to put themselves in that position.
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