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Measurement Based Handicapping
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English Dave View Drop Down
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Posts: 682 		Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Measurement Based Handicapping
    Posted: 01 Dec 08 at 11:24am
This from the Nacra Infusion website "as the wind increases the crew weight is moved further aft and the boat starts to plane upwind !!"
OK that's advertising hyperbole, but Nacra must believe there's some truth in it.

And I think the Catapult (Inflatable thingy) can plane but it's not in the mainstream of performance catamarans.

From a "laws of physics" angle I agree with Chris that cats can't have enough area (flat or otherwise) for it to plane properly. (Chris if that's your 2 cents what do you get for the full dollar?) And the ease of tacking hadn't occurred to me although the minimal rocker that also seems to be a part of modern cat design would surely work against this. But, ill-informed or not, most of my cat friends believe that modern catamarans are being designed with some element of planing in mind.

Anyway, outnumbered and out-educated I shall retire back under my rock.
English Dave
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 08 at 2:15pm
Reg White came up with a Cat a few years ago which was specifically designed to plane, but I think it vanished without trace? The very narrow pre flying Int Moths had also got so narrow that they didn't plane in the same way as, say, a Laser does, but they had also got so narrow that like a Cat, they were narrow enough to not be held back by the displacement bow wave.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 08 at 8:00pm

Originally posted by Rupert

Reg White came up with a Cat a few years ago which was specifically designed to plane, but I think it vanished without trace? The very narrow pre flying Int Moths had also got so narrow that they didn't plane in the same way as, say, a Laser does, but they had also got so narrow that like a Cat, they were narrow enough to not be held back by the displacement bow wave.

 

You are thinking of the Hurricane 500.

Only know of 1 and it is at Grafham.

Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
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DiscoBall View Drop Down
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Posts: 305 		Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 08 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

I actually think personal handicapping is probably a good idea at club
level and might encourage folk to realise just how much there is to learn.



Yeah I think that's down the right road - however sailings' complexity does - even in class racing - leave a lot of hidey holes for people to lurk in denial... 

If anything sailing probably loses more people who never master the basic racing skills having got lost up the 'boat fiddling' street.  If sailing had something similar to the golf professionals in clubs then maybe it would be able to guide people to focus on relevant areas and allow them to get more out of their racing.

Golf doesn't seem to suffer from its handicapping - it seems bizarrely more and more popular with younger and younger people going by my colleagues in various jobs. Weird.

As for the scientific vs empirical handicapping (apologies I'm probably repeating points already made - only skim read it) - well big boat racing went through 15odd painful years mucking about with IMS.  Loads of money was poured into the project and now its back at a single number IRC rating with every dog having its day.  Good luck with the project but I think you'll end up reinventing the wheel!
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Isis View Drop Down
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Posts: 2753 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Isis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 09 at 10:24pm
Hi All
Just a quick note to say thankyou to those who responded to the original post. The dissertation goes in on Wednesday so im just putting the finishing touches on it now...

For those interested this is a comparison between my single number handicap and PY for a handfull of classes. (Il be running a few more if I can find measurement data in time)
Given the huge amount of bodging required to get something like this to work I think this has been a pretty big success and definantly shows some potential for the future...



Ive stil not been able to put my finger on why that DAMN GP14 is so fast...
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Bas Edmonds View Drop Down
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Posts: 26 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bas Edmonds Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 09 at 9:16am
Havent we forgotten the righting moment acheived by the crew? Should we not be looking at weighing crews before every event and factoring that into the equation?
Bas Edmonds
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 09 at 10:10am
Originally posted by Bas Edmonds

Should we not be looking at weighing crews before every event and factoring that into the equation?


Only if we want to go insane... As various failed attempts to do performance equalisation proved its a very complex factor...
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Guests View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 09 at 10:17am

Hi Isis,

Any more details on how your system works, what the formula is etc? I'm sure I'm not the only one that is interested.
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 09 at 10:21am
Originally posted by Bas Edmonds

Havent we forgotten the righting moment acheived by the crew? Should we not be looking at weighing crews before every event and factoring that into the equation?

please no! I've escaped that ritual humiliation since shifting to a non-weight equalised class.
-_
Al
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Posts: 997 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 09 at 10:31am

Isis, Did you find much use for the stuff I sent over last year?

Good to hear you're happy with the outcome, lets hope it gets some good loving from the examiner!

That had parameters involving the RM of the crew, assuming a crew weight / height pertaining to each boat. I also sent them to Bas in january post BM but this went unacknowledged.



Edited by Daniel Holman
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