New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Another keel breaks...
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Another keel breaks...

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
WildWood View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king
Avatar

Joined: 14 Nov 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 136
Post Options Post Options   Quote WildWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Another keel breaks...
    Posted: 27 Nov 06 at 10:43am

Canting keels seem to be gettng a fair bit of grief and they obviously have some reliability issues, but the suggestion that they should be banned is taking things too far. 

Going sailing offshore short handed is inevitably going to be dangerous, whether going in a canting keel boat, conventional keel boat, or (craziest of them all!) a multi hull.  There are an almost infinite number of things that can go wrong with offshore race boats - for example snapping a mast, hitting something etc.  I guess it is best to let the sailors decide if the performance gain from a canting keel outweighs the risk of a keel failure.

It seems there are plenty of other dangerous things out there that don't get banned'so why pick on canting keels!

Back to Top
CurlyBen View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 Aug 05
Location: Southampton
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 539
Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 06 at 10:36am
After seeing a spectacular video of a Mumm 30 crash gybing I have to agree! I have found that a lot of high performance boats (especially those with the helm on the wire) tend to go in to windward more often - it's easier to dump sheets than to bring them in again - but that's another topic.
RS800 GBR848
Weston SC
Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 06 at 9:56am

Originally posted by CurlyBen

Also, by providing more righting moment the canting keel will reduce the liklihood of a capsize

Depends on whether the keel is on the "right side". Dinghies mostly capsize to leeward (except, perhaps, Lasers and similar), whereas on a keelboat, broaches to windard (i.e. capsize to leeward) are generally quite tame affairs. It is broaches to leeward (with unplanned gybe) that cause the grief. In that case, not only will the sails be pinning you down but so will the keel, now on the wrong side.

Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 06 at 8:23am

Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC

 From a general point of view, canting keels may aid the sport as a whole due to the fact that it's quite scary how many cruisers, racer/cruisers, etc have high inversion stability, in such they won't self right.

So name a few instances of an offshore monohull, with keel intact, failing to self-right. Other than the Open 60, which was been allowed to go a trend of exteme beam. You will find the offshore rating rules in use for cruiser/racers have provisions to ensure that designs won't go that way.  In any case, for general performance around the bouys, extreme beam isn't fast. I've matched the pace of an Open 60 for several hours in a 38 foot cruiser racer in light running conditions. Of course in the strong-wind reaching conditions they are designed for, it's another story.

I think you are confusing the preference of some sailors for canters for performance gains (which are certainly real) with safety improvements. Given the high number of failures it is rather hard to argue that canters are safer.

 



Edited by Stefan Lloyd
Back to Top
49erGBR735HSC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1991
Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 06 at 10:18pm

I've been researching a lot about canting keels, and although they have had their failings, they do have the support from sailors such as Mike Golding, and it wasn't my own personal opinion, although I do agree with it, that canting keels are tending to make off-shore racing more safe on the whole. The tightening of the offshore rules for Open 60s has been aided through canting keels because it has allowed boats which would be incapable of self-righting with conventional keels, to right. There are two routes which the designs seem to be going down as I'm percieving it now, "beemier" boats with more upright stability and canting keels, which perform higher, or narrower boats with the ability to self-right but less sailing stability. It's a bit of a trade off between the two and it's really down to the sailor's personal decision on which design they choose, and at the present moment, the canting keel boats seem to have preference. My point initially was that if they can get the mechanics behind the canting keels right, it makes the sport slightly more safer due to the fact that wider designs of boats can be sailed, with the likely-hood of capsize reduced slightly and if need be, the canting keel can aid righting in the worst case scenario. From a general point of view, canting keels may aid the sport as a whole due to the fact that it's quite scary how many cruisers, racer/cruisers, etc have high inversion stability, in such they won't self right. If the cutting edge of the sport can pioneer and refine canting keels to the point there are no general failings, in years to come, they may filter down into other classes and lessen the ammount of  supposedly "safe" boats which can't self-right.

Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
Helensburgh S.C
Boat Insurance from Noble Marine

Back to Top
Iain C View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1113
Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 06 at 6:00pm

Dennis

I really have to disagree that canting keels are a step forward from a safety point of view!  Just look at the numbers of high profile failures, Ericsson, Boss, Nicorette, the list goes on and on. How on earth no sailor or rescuer has been killed yet I have no idea. It just seems to an enormous achilles' heel of modern designs, there is no other failure that causes as much of an issue.

Granted they do make an inversion less dangerous, but I really would not fancy my chances of canting the keel in an upside down boat in the dark.  The issue here is to do more with the shape of stuff like an Open 60...however not sure on this but haven't the stability rules been tightened up anyway? 

RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"
Back to Top
tgruitt View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2479
Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 06 at 7:39pm
at least there are two people on board to set up the jury rig.
Needs to sail more...
Back to Top
hurricane View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 15 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1047
Post Options Post Options   Quote hurricane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 06 at 7:11pm
bad news is ecovers mast has just snapped....
lifes to short to sail slow boats!

RIP Olympic Tornado 1976-2007
Back to Top
WildWood View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king
Avatar

Joined: 14 Nov 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 136
Post Options Post Options   Quote WildWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 06 at 3:26pm

Re Alex Thomson / Hugo Boss, good news that he is safe onboard Ecover.  Anyone know what will happen to Hugo Boss now?  Is it just left to drift in the southern ocean until it breaks up and sinks?  The report didn't seem to suggest the keel damage was causing her to take on water.  Would they try and salvage the boat?

Anyway, what a shame.  Pretty crappy thing to happen.

Back to Top
CurlyBen View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 Aug 05
Location: Southampton
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 539
Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 06 at 2:32pm
Also, by providing more righting moment the canting keel will reduce the liklihood of a capsize, and even if the keel is hanging freely it will fall to one side after capsize and so help to right the boat. However, I just can't comprehend why the designers can't get the mechanisms to hold together. I haven't looked deeply at the incidents but it doesn't even sound to be in unusual conditions, certainly well within what the boats should be expected to endure.
RS800 GBR848
Weston SC
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy