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Measurement Based Handicapping

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m_liddell View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Nov 08 at 4:14pm
An interesting idea though I'm sceptical it will be any better than PY.

A good place to start would be "High Performance Sailing"and the formula for what they call 'sail carrying power'. The hardest thing with dinghies is the planing/non-planing aspect.

In an ideal world we would have polar plots for all classes in all wind strengths (which could be obtained from GPS tracks with work) with known fast settings. The set course could then be drawn on a computer which would then work out the velocity of the boat over all legs of the course using interpolated wind data which is logged over the race from different marks on the course (not perfect I know).Since boats will do a similar amount of tacks/gybes the effect of these can be discounted as long as all boats are asy or all sym. Places can then be calculated by the smallest percentage increase from the calculated 'perfect' time. While not perfect it would be interesting to try.


Edited by m_liddell
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 08 at 5:39pm

Originally posted by m_liddell

In an ideal world we would have polar plots for all classes in all wind strengths (which could be obtained from GPS tracks with work)

That's not a measurement-based system then. It's performance-based - a fancy version of PY. 

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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 08 at 7:33pm

Some excellent comments here, esp. from Jim C and Stephan as to why you can't have a 'number for the day'; my view entirely, and that sets the limits on the usefulness of a predictor. The predictor mainly allows you to see why you did well/badly on a given day - or at least gives you some idea. It also is pretty good at predicting what happens when you make changes within a given class, e.g. by taking out weight or adding sail area.

As Daniel Holman says (my approach was pretty similar to his by the sound of it), the big problem in predicting performance is determining waterline beam and wetted area. I just guessed at w/l beam from the o/a beam and my recollection of how flared a classes topsides were. The wetted area I then calculated using a very crude formula. Waterline length is also important and is a guesstimate in many classes.

I also tried an alternative 'statistical' approach, plotting all classes' known PY's against a simple formula combining all the parameters and looking for a 'best fit', playing with the constants. For displacement sailing that came out pretty well and would be good for a 'first shot' for a new class. I found it very hard to come up with a good fit for planing performance, however; maybe hull shape detail is more important for that than it appears to be for displacment sailing.

Of course, the relative performances can best be estimated for like-classes - skiff, keelboat, or whatever, though for mixed handicap racing that doesn't get you very far. For my comparison, I used the Wayfarer as my yardstick class (I was mostly racing against them at the time in a Laser 2). The real problem then, though, was planing - it's very hard to predict when it will happen and for what percentage of the time. What was clear though, was that barring accidents or pure luck, they were going to win in displacement conditions and we could hardly lose once planing.

As to Rick's perennial plug for class racing, I'm afraid that for me what's most important is to have a good sail in the right boat for me, but I can't expect most of my club-mates to want the same class as me, so handicap racing is inevitable. As for results, people barely seem to remember them, so are they so important? - I once asked a bunch of sailors at a nationals 'who won last year?' - nobody could remember for sure!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote martingbr1307 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 08 at 8:43pm
One problem with any handicapping system is surely the human element. After all a lot of classes tend to attract certain types so if they were to race in the same boat the result would be clear cut. This would involve comparing the boats rather than the sailors and i hope, would make for a more accurate result, anyway, sounds like an interesting dissertation, good luck with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote m_liddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 08 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by m_liddell

In an ideal world we would have polar plots for all classes in all wind strengths (which could be obtained from GPS tracks with work)

That's not a measurement-based system then. It's performance-based - a fancy version of PY. 



I realise that but think this would be a better alternative than the PY system and measurement-based system. A measurement-based system is a dead end imo.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 08 at 1:14pm

Originally posted by m_liddell


A good place to start would be "High Performance Sailing"and the formula for what they call 'sail carrying power'. The hardest thing with dinghies is the planing/non-planing aspect.

You need to be careful using Bethwaite's SCP/weight ratio - an Oppie has a better ration than an 18ft skiff!

David Gerr (author of several books) devised a formula for 'hull speed' (essentially max non planing speed), which updates the old 1.34*LWL^0.5 to:

max hull speed = 1.24 * L^1.433 / D^0.311

where speed is in knots

L is waterline legth in feet

and D is all up weight in pounds

Of course, that doesn't tell you what windspeed you need to reach that max speed, but its a start.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 08 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

I found it very hard to come up with a good fit for planing performance, however; maybe hull shape detail is more important for that than it appears to be for displacment sailing.


I would think that would be the case... When running up against the displacement hump large changes in drag only make small changes in speed, so things are quite predictable. Below or above that region its not the case, and the problem is much greater.

Some thoughts from development boats I've been involved with...

In the Cherubs from about 1965 through to 1980 the round the track speed in F3 and above probably increased about 10 to 20% with no changes in beam, length or sail area. The changes were all to do with the amount of rocker and the shape of the waterplane.

With the new development Canoe rule we seem to be getting a performance jump of around 5% with lightened displacement and a slightly narrower max waterline beam. Again max beam and rig are unchanged. In this case rocker distribution and hull shape forward of the mast seem to me to be key influences.

This makes me think that you're not going to get a worthwhile measurement handicap system for dinghies without taking into account these factors - at the very least depth and waterline beam at bow, stern and three intermediate points. You probably also need to take into account section shape at those points.

Just the measurement process would seem to be a formidable challenge!

Edited by JimC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 08 at 1:55pm
In many respects an effective performance based personally handicapping system (like golf) that took into account the class and crew skill would be of much more use at club level ... then eveyone could race everyone ... you'd have a handicap for you and your boat and you could use that at other events such as summer race weeks.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 08 at 2:17pm

Yes, Rick, but who would want to break the news to guys who've been sailing for years that they were 8% (typically 80 PY points or the difference between a Buzz and a 29er) or more slower than the top guys in the club? The humiliation would probably make them give up.

For that reason (mainly), I keep the details of the rating system I use for pursuit races very much inside the black box.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 08 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Yes, Rick, but who would want to break the news to guys who've been sailing for years that they were 8% (typically 80 PY points or the difference between a Buzz and a 29er) or more slower than the top guys in the club? The humiliation would probably make them give up.

For that reason (mainly), I keep the details of the rating system I use for pursuit races very much inside the black box.

Are people's egos really that fragile?

People who have a 28 handicap in golf play against scratch golfers in the same competitions with no problem at all ... and often a long handicapper will win as they have a good day against the scratch golfer who is more steady.

I'd have thought the prospect of actually having the opportunity to win somthing would have seen greater levels of participation.

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