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Seamanlike Rounding
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redback View Drop Down
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Posts: 1502 		Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Seamanlike Rounding
    Posted: 10 Jan 05 at 9:07pm

Here'a an interesting situation.  Two single handers on a dead run on starboard to the leeward mark which has to be rounded to port, and the next leg is a beat.  The inside boat is a Laser, and outside and keeping clear as they pass the mark is a Phantom.  The Phantom wants to gybe to round the mark but both boats are hit by a gust and the Laser hangs on (scared to gybe).  The boats come together with the Laser pushing a hole in the topsides of the Phantom just in front of the transom.  The force of this impact pushes the Phantom into a gybe - which gybes the Laser.  Both boats capsise and let several boats slip through on the inside.

Who's in the wrong?  The Laser for not gybing when "able" or the Phantom who claims he kept clear?
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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 05 at 8:18am
Both, in my view.  The Laser for not rounding the mark promptly and the phantom for failing to avoid a collision where serious damage occured (assuming the laser didn't alter course sharply to windward when the gust hit).  Fear of capsize is not a reason not to gybe.

Edited by Garry
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 05 at 10:44am
Interesting. I thought I agreed with Garry. However on closer inspection, I can't find anything in the rules that say you have to gybe promptly. The phrase "seamanlike rounding" used to be in the rules but no longer seems to be.
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Phil eltringham View Drop Down
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Posts: 1105 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil eltringham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 05 at 11:34am
18.4 Gybing

When an inside overlapped right-of-way boat must gybe at a mark or obstruction to sail her proper course, until she gybes she shall sail no farther from the mark or obstruction than needed to sail that course.

Essentiall this means that the laser is in the wrong and is liable for the damage to the phantom (if damage occurs it is considered the fault of the right of way boat).  However if the phantom was closer to the laser than the comined length of their booms (i.e.: the laser could finish its gybe before the phantom started its) then there is a case for the phantom not keeping clear. 

IMHO if I was the phantom I would have tacked out early and snuck inside the laser, may loose a boatlengh on the pack but if far better than being stuck next to comeone who cant gybe (or wose as here!), especially if its just a club race . 

FLAT IS FAST!
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 05 at 12:09pm
I think Phil is correct. ISAF team racing casebook case H3 describes an almost identical situation (except the mark is taken to stbd). In that case L is NOT required to gybe and may take W beyond the mark to allow a team-mate to overtake. The casebook explains that is because RRS appendix D (team racing) deletes rule 18.4. The implication is that in fleet racing, L is required to gybe under 18.4.
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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 05 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by redback

  The boats come together with the Laser pushing a hole in the topsides of the Phantom just in front of the transom. 


Who's in the wrong?  The Laser for not gybing when "able" or the Phantom who claims he kept clear?



I think I'd like to add "the Phantom obviously didn't keep clear"
Garry

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Adam84 View Drop Down
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Posts: 48 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Adam84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 05 at 9:22pm
The Laser is clearly in the wrong, the phantom had to give enough room for the laser to gybe round the mark, and the laser has to gybe as you have to take the natural course round the mark, and if to do this you have to gybe that is what you must do. The Phantom wouldnt be held responsible for the collision as by the sounds of things the laser was probably out of control and in that situation its hard to predict what the laser will do so imposible for you to perdict what sort of action to take to keep clear. 
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iansmithofotley View Drop Down
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iansmithofotley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 05 at 10:11pm

Hi everyone,

Prior to 1997, when the rules were changed and supposed to have made things easier, the situation was specifically catered for:

Rule 42.1(b) Room at marks and obstructions when overlapped. (1993 -1996 rules).     "When an inside yacht, of two or more overlapped yachts, either on opposite tacks, or on the same tack without luffing rights, will have to gybe in order, most directly, to assume a proper course to the next mark, she shall gybe at the first reasonable opportunity".

It seems that the present rules are not so specific and we just have to rely on the current rule of 18.4, as Phil has said.  Redback has stated that the Phantom was keeping clear but he has not said how far from the mark they were.  They could have been 20 yards away, in very windy conditions.  Provided the Phantom had given the Laser the room to complete the manouevre, then I, too, think that the Laser was in the wrong.

Ian   (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)
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sailor.jon View Drop Down
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Posts: 361 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sailor.jon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 05 at 10:40pm
after reading all the above it would appea that the laser was in the wrong - i cant beleive ive said that, all laser sailors ar great guys n gals and never in the wrong:P
Jon
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 05 at 8:30am

Originally posted by iansmithofotley

Prior to 1997, when the rules were changed and supposed to have made things easier,

The pre-1997 rules were clearer and better in many ways. Then they were made "simpler". Since then they have become steadily more complicated again to fix the things the "simple" rules left out. Some of the wording of recent changes is truly baffling.
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