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Peter Barton View Drop Down
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Posts: 129 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Peter Barton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Endeavour Trophy
    Posted: 14 Oct 08 at 12:47am

Interesting deep stuff. I guess pecking orders are related to attitudes. If people get regularly beaten by someone perhaps they get used to it and then comfortable with it. Then you have to dig your way out of that crazy mental hole!

No 'pecking order' can be very established as this fleet has not raced together before.

I dont see it existing by reputation either as you have 30 National Champions so there are plenty of people used to winning, winning the start and claiming a pin end for themselves if they want it. They should, at least initially, have good attitude

However, would maybe a less experienced team, almost subcontiously, cut Nick Craig some slack of a start line based on his past reputation as 3 times (now 4) winner? Hopefully not, if they are worth their salt. But then maybe it does happen subcontiuously? Need to raise attitude to over come that? Getting into deep psyco stuff now........

 
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Rockhopper View Drop Down
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Posts: 642 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rockhopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 08 at 8:57am

well i agree with pete in every aspect as i did the endeavour last year (winning the vareo nationals) i had not sailed a boat with spreaders or with a crew for a few years.i spent the first day nearly last every race as i could not get the thing to point up wind when you are five degress off everyone else you struggle.however in our once ashore i tried to find a setting for the boat so a quick chat to the greenhaulh brothers and the boat was set up next day for us much better in the teens only my poor choices on directions costing us places.

however i had to say that i learnt alot from the event which i would say everyone should try to get to .

andy
Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest.
2004 national champ Laser5000
2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo
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laser4000 View Drop Down
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Posts: 589 		Post Options Post Options   Quote laser4000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 08 at 9:29am
Originally posted by Peter Barton

'laser4000' - Sorry to let you down! We were =7th overnight but blew our series with 2xDNFs dropping us to 13th.

Saturday was fantastic racing with 5 races on 'the light side of medium' say 6-11knots. Plenty for good racing with some pretty hard hiking still required in the Xenons. Probably a perfect wind for the event with the heavy teams not being able to out grunt the lightweights.

Sunday had one race and the wind dropped right off as the 6th boat sniggled through the finish line against the increasing tied. Other boats (N12, Enty,49er,Cherub) who  left the bank for the finish line drifted helplessly backwards. Time limit was that anyone over 15 mins after the winner gets DNF. Perhaps not a great rule in light winds and a strong tide?

I think the Xenons were a great equaliser with a mix of heavy and light teams through the results. They also equalise the various skill sets of the competitors being reasonably basic to sail and rig. A real testament of the philosophy of 'its not what you sail but how you sail it'. You can either blame the boat and be miserable or embrace the challenge.

The event as always proved very interesting with Champions forced out of their own class comfort zone having to cope with new challenges - assy kites, having crews & jibs, having to hike etc, not to mention the venue.  A humbling experience for most at some point, where champions who are used to winning having to fight hard to maintain positions down the fleet. Competition was harsh; in addition to the 'moving carpet' effect of the tide there seemed to be another moving carpet effect - that of the fleet which from top to bottom kept moving around the course at pace and was often very tightly packed. Any error - a bad rounding, loosing 'the groove' or stepping to far into the tide - was normally punished by loosing not one but maybe a tranch of 4 boats at a time.

I thought all the yoof classes (Feva,Pico,Laser4.7, Mirror, Cadet) put in a creditable perforance with several top ten results and notably the 4.7s leading the last race before finishing 3rd.

Man of the match in my view; National 12 sailors Graham Camm & Zoe Ballantyne in 3rd overall who dont normally sail a spinnaker class and hiked their lightweight socks off.

Well done to Topper for doing a great job providing 30 identical brand new boats and other sponsors, Hyde, Musto, Selden and RCYC for running a great event again.



Great feedback Pedro - glad you had fun! You'll now have to keep up your nationals winning streak so that you can go back next year and make it onto the podium..



Edited by laser4000
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 08 at 11:41am
Originally posted by Peter Barton

Interesting deep stuff. I guess pecking orders
are related to attitudes. If people get regularly beaten by someone
perhaps they get used to it and then comfortable with it. Then you have to
dig your way out of that crazy mental hole!


No 'pecking order' can be very established as this fleet has not raced
together before.


I dont see it existing by reputation either as you have 30 National
Champions so there are plenty of people used to winning, winning the
start and claiming a pin end for themselves if they want it. They
should, at least initially, have good attitude


However, would maybe a less experienced team, almost subcontiously,
cut Nick Craig some slack of a start line based on his past reputation as 3
times (now 4) winner? Hopefully not, if they are worth their salt. But then
maybe it does happen subcontiuously? Need to raise attitude to over
come that? Getting into deep psyco stuff now........


 


Not necessarily deep psycho stuff but an essential element of any tactical
approach to a start line, there will always be those who are there to take
part and those that are there to win however experienced they are and
only 1 in 3 of them will ever make it clean off the line. Subconscious or
consciously OD races do have a habit of getting won or lost by it imho.

But it also sounds like, judging by the next post, setting the boat up is
also a key element unless they do that for you and you're not allowed to
fiddle which would be a fairer competition for the classes without
tensionable rigs for example.
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sten View Drop Down
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Posts: 208 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 08 at 12:45pm

It does favour people from simular classes in that they know how to get the best out of the boat with rig set up and good team work, but with a little asking people and looking around you can soon pick up what makes them the best.... Ill have to practice a bit more if I get the chance to go again.

I dont think anyone sufferers from a pecking order, the main difference is Nick/Toby are better prepared having raced a variety of simular classes and are confident of there speed and boat handling enabling them to fully concentrate on good starts and tactics, if your head is in the boat your not going to win.

http://www.photoblink.com/sailing/endeavour08/pages/DSC_0336 -copy-sm.htm

Great event, well worth going if you get the chance, a big thank you to topper for providing new boats giving a level playing field, even though I didnt finish where I wanted too  I learnt alot from the event.



Edited by sten
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Roy Race View Drop Down
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Posts: 275 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Roy Race Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 08 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by sten

I dont think anyone sufferers from a pecking order, the main difference is Nick/Toby are better prepared having raced a variety of simular classes and are confident of there speed and boat handling enabling them to fully concentrate on good starts and tactics, if your head is in the boat your not going to win.

http://www.photoblink.com/sailing/endeavour08/pages/DSC_0336 -copy-sm.htm

That's a really interesting photo. Now, I'm not trying to criticise so please take this in the way it's intended, but Nick and Toby are looking upwind at where they're going and you're looking at the rig! I know it's only a snapshot in time but could this tell a story?

Also, they've got their jib absolutely nailed in hard, which is different to your setup.
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 08 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by Roy Race

Originally posted by sten

if your head is in the boat your not going to win.

http://www.photoblink.com/sailing/endeavour08/pages/DSC_0336 -copy-sm.htm

That's a really interesting photo. Now, I'm not trying to criticise so please take this in the way it's intended, but Nick and Toby are looking upwind at where they're going and you're looking at the rig! I know it's only a snapshot in time but could this tell a story?

Also, they've got their jib absolutely nailed in hard, which is different to your setup.

I think that's his point. Of course, Nick and Toby also sail together, rather than against each other...



Edited by alstorer
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 08 at 2:58pm
Hah they've got you nailed there, they're stuffing a lee bow in place
therefore you can't point, and she won't do as she's told then not related by
any chance? Didn't I read somehwere you're supposed to elbow them down if
they wont hike hard enough..

Edited by G.R.F.
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timeintheboat View Drop Down
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Posts: 615 		Post Options Post Options   Quote timeintheboat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 08 at 4:04pm
I have to say the set of pictures on Y&Y will have done nothing but good for Topper and Photoblink - and good luck to them.

There are some stunning pictures in there and the boat does look good. The badged Hyde kite certainly looks better than the black ones I have only seen before.

A bit of bigging up the event would have done no harm.

I am sure a great experience for all those that took part.
Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else
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sten View Drop Down
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Posts: 208 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 08 at 4:06pm

kind of happened every time we where next to another boat, why are they pointing higher / going faster? whats there rig look like compaired to ours? aahh thats whats wrong!!! now we have lost our lane grrrr  We mostly had very good starts and gradually dropped back to places which I have forgotten. I should have done more home work before the event.
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