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Best Handicapped Boat?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Best Handicapped Boat?
    Posted: 31 Jan 06 at 1:49am

Originally posted by TonyL

Depends on the conditions and size of pond/sea etc. On a pond a Phantom is hard to beat in light/medium stuff. Fireballs seem to do well on bigger waters.

The question was phrased to include performance over a variety of conditions and sized ponds etc.

BTW It was a bit windy at Northampton for the Steve Nicholson and Phantoms absolutely wiped the floor with the opposition in the singlehanders and Fireballs dominated the doublehanders (excepting a very well sailed 420).

Originally posted by Ian29937

If it's to be sailed in a variety of conditions and venues, then all things should be equal as the ratings are based on statistical analysis of race results.  The only way I can imagine you could beat the system is to either sail a boat which never competes in handicap races and as a result hasn't got a statistically valid handicap or get your self a boat where development has improved speed but the rating hasn't caught up, I14, N12, Cherub, Moth etc

All things certainly should be equal but they probably aren't. The data is incomplete and therefore flawed. For instance, many clubs don't send returns. In some classes the hot shots don't club race often enough to affect returns. Crew skill factor is used by some clubs but not others, and some big returns are, I hear disallowed because they deviate too far from what's expected for the Primary Classes (Hayling Island I believe).

Your point about development is also valid as the yardstick has indeed to 'catch up'. This obviously applies to development classes  -  most noticeably  I14s when they added T foils, 12s when they became self draining, Merlins when they figured out the carbon rigs at the same time as hitting an 'optimal' hull shape (at least for now), and dare I even mention the Cherub?  But this also applies to any 'one designs'  that also change significantly without a noticable (and immediate) effect on their Yardstick. Examples might be the the Blaze, V3000,  any class that suddenly allows carbon masts and there must be others.

All just just got plain quicker but the Yardstick doesn't move for at least a year and even then it moves slowly.  I've heard that the ratings committee don't like to make big adjustments on comparitively little data! This could be an old wives tale - does anyone know how they work out adjustments to Yardsticks?

Perhaps the question I should have asked is

"What boat should you avoid if you want to win handicap races?"

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 06 at 8:41am

But this also applies to any 'one designs'  that also change significantly without a noticable (and immediate) effect on their Yardstick. Examples might be the the Blaze, V3000,  any class that suddenly allows carbon masts and there must be others.

There are loads of one designs that have changed very significantly (and recently in nearly all cases!) and had no change in yardstick. GP14, Fireball, Phantom, Lark, FD, the list goes on!

I think the best way forward rather than to trim their yardsticks, it would be both easier and more effective to give classes that have not changed at all a PY increase.

This is bourne out by the fact that a new GP14 is proved, at our club anyway, to be at least as fast as a new Enterprise and a new Solo is not all that much slower than either.

The other problem is that most classes have specific conditions in which they excel. If we take a Merlin (Which performs to it's PY over pretty much the whole range) and compare it to a Fireball and an Enterprise in a blow or medium conditions the Ent will be left behind but the Ball and the Merlin should have a good race (On handicap). In lighter stuff the Ball will be the boat left behind.

Then you still have the problem of Hydro Moths Cherubs and Canoes, and I honestly don't see the point in even trying to handicap those on a national basis. I think the best way of dealing with those classes is to not issue a number at all and let clubs sort them out if and when they turn up to handicap race.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 5420 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 06 at 11:18am

Originally posted by turnturtle

Hasn't Vareo had a rather favourable change in handicap... heard there's been some uproar in some clubs where the Vareo sailors are now doing far better than previously.

ps small pond winter series, light winds, lots of offwind sailing- Lasers can do well because they're nimble little beasts.

our handy cap has not changed yet but it needs to fast

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 06 at 12:26am

Higher? Or Lower?

Are you going to the Tiger - sailing within a fleet of 50 or so 420s might be illuminating!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 5420 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 06 at 11:10am

no the vareo is almost pointless going handy cap racing in as you wont do well

but if the forcast for it gets better i may go in a 200

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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 06 at 3:35pm
Hmmm many comments here. Time for my 2p.

At my local club (small pond) the Phantoms have pretty much cleaned up over the last 18 months or so (since the advent of carbon masts and new hull construction). There is a movement within the club to change the PY to ensure fair racing (see the letter in the current issue of Y&Y regarding PYs and requests for redress).

However to throw this in to the mix... Our Ice Breaker series last year was won by a Laser (shock horror I hear you say). Why was this....

Simply the person sailing the boat (yours truly) was a bit porky and it was windy. The Phantoms were having to spill and foot off left right and centre, I just wound on the cunningham and blew them away upwind, managed to hold them offwind.

Just goes to show that it is down to conditions as well as boat. It has been agreed in the club that something needs to be done if the RYA PY panel do not make a significant adjustment (it was 1 point faster last year if memory serves).

I have gone for the 'if you can't beat them joint them' and bought a Blaze which will hopefully get me closer to them than I can get in the lighter winds at the moment.

Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 5420 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 06 at 1:29pm

iv been reading all of theas and im suprised that no one has not said about the albercorn it has the best handy cap there is from what iv heard they can win at any place in any condishons

 

we should all get them for handy cap racing

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote far canal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 06 at 3:19pm
albercorn    new wan oan me
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 06 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by far canal

albercorn    new wan oan me


Mark....save us.....can we have a spell check please!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote far canal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 06 at 3:54pm

How about

 

 

albercorn ---  Thats a new one to me old chap, never heard of one of those , toodle pip !



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