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Jon Emmett View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Nov 05 at 3:38pm
For the Radial I think being under 70Kgs is definitely a good thing. The last two World Championships sailed in moderate breeze were won by Men under 70Kgs. As far as the change from Europe to Radial, the Radial is a more physical boat (as it has a less responsive rig) so a lot of the girls have hit the gym, gaining strength (and weight),,, Just out of interest the Radial has much less sail area than the Europe.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote les5269 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 05 at 3:41pm
So theorectically it shouldn't make any difference if they are slightly out of the optimum weight range?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 05 at 11:16pm

Hey Guys!  just whilst we're in this weight range convo
weight is not a huge issue to boatspeed!  over the years weve seen the likes of ian percy and ben ainslie bring the so called optimum wieght range for the finn down by some 5+ kilos!  And more annoyingly than that at the 800 nats this yr which was minimal winds for the most part, Irish + Gotrel were happily caning it round the course and they weighed in at 159kg, which is pretty heavy!!  
Thats all from me

Doug

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 05 at 5:33am
Originally posted by Doug.H

Hey Guys!  just whilst we're in this weight range convo
weight is not a huge issue to boatspeed! 

Not true..... its a huge factor, just different hulls have different characteristics under loading.

Originally posted by Doug.H

over the years weve seen the likes of ian percy and ben ainslie bring the so called optimum wieght range for the finn down by some 5+ kilos! 

The finn is naturally tolerant of a wide range of weights due to high dispacement and a hull shape which, under loading, increases imersion without proportionally increasing waterline beam. Some 5+kilos is very little for this class, and even less for Mr Emmett who feels its quite reasonable to train hopeful female Olympians with protein and weights to gain at least twice that.

Originally posted by Doug.H

And more annoyingly than that at the 800 nats this yr which was minimal winds for the most part, Irish + Gotrel were happily caning it round the course and they weighed in at 159kg, which is pretty heavy!!  

Weight (so long as not excessive) slowing you down in the light stuff, especially 'minimal' winds, is a myth. The sole indicator for over 100years of a boats light wind speed potential is the waterline length/sail area ratio...... the sail/weight (so called Bruce number) has no relevance till strong motion is given.

For every kilo added in righting moment more force on the sail can be balanced up to a threshold, when it tails off ... in the case of some dinghies very sharply - this threshold gives us the optimum weight for a given hull and in most cases has nothing to do with sail area. The myth that more weight in a dinghy can enable you to carry more sailarea in more wind exists because thats how it feels when you are over powered but, the reality with most planninghulls is, the threshold weight is very close to the lower limit needed to stop it tipping over.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote les5269 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 05 at 5:17pm
Quite agree Bumble I sailed 5ks and in the light stuff we could whip the likes of 49ers and 800s,most of the time beating them on the water!(we weighed about 160kgs and the boat 180kgs slightly more than the average 49er!)
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Jon Emmett View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Emmett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 05 at 5:35pm
I do not know any of the girls who have put on more than a kilo or two! (I am sure I would have noticed if any had gained over 10 Kilos!!!) and yes I feel it is quite reasonable for the radial girls to go to the gym, this is a natural part of training for all sports!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 05 at 6:33pm

Also in jons defence, i dont think its a case of being reasonable for ppl to train using protein suppliments. The ones reccomended by the rya were considered and tested in the highest respect before being given the go ahead for anyones use.  And it is the sailors choice, they are not force fed anything.
As for what i experienced at the 800 nats, on the first day no it wasnt minimal winds, (upwind) most boats were single wiring with the crew sometimes peaking out, where as irish + gotrel were able to be twin (almost flat wiring!!).  and for a boat where i would consider the optimum weight being somewhat less than theirs, it can be clearly stated that their speed was due to pure skill!!  not their correct weight to boat ratio!
Another good example of weight NOT being a huge issue would be steve Restall any time he sails a topper.  Through the complete wind range he is rarely seen out of the top 5 and he would be considered massively overweight. (around the 12 stone mark i believe)
I myself am 64kg and sail an RS600 where i myself am considered massively underweight yet down to much much practice i can happily handle the boat and yes keep competative boatspeed in the top wind range. 
Ive never known anyone to win because they were "the right weight", ive seen many people win because they were the better sailor!
And another thing on being "the right weight" , i think its fair to say that the right weight has pretty much been dictated from whoevers winning the most in that class.  so called optimum weights are forever fluctuating due to who's currently top in the considered class.

please dont take this as a heated reponse, im not up on hydro/aerodynamic theory so this really is JUST an opinion based purely on what ive seen first hand.
lets keep it going, i like hearing what people have to say on this weight issue
im pretty certain that thers a lot more opinions to be heard yet

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 05 at 7:15pm

Originally posted by Bumble

The finn is naturally tolerant of a wide range of weights due to high dispacement and a hull shape which, under loading, increases imersion without proportionally increasing waterline beam.

I'd also assume you can tune mast stiffness and sail shape to match weight. The Europe women certainly did so, while in the Radial they obviously cannot.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Emmett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 05 at 7:36pm
Even though the Europe could tune their rig the girls tended to favour the rig of the people who were performing well and thus ended up matching their weight... So the spread of weights remained small (comparable to the Laser!)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 05 at 6:20am
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

I'd also assume you can tune mast stiffness and sail shape to match weight. The Europe women certainly did so, while in the Radial they obviously cannot.

Indeed, and it naturally follows that a class of hull with a broader competitive weight tolerance would have more rigs to suit (change gear) a broader range of sailors. One with a tighter weight range would obviously better optimise around one.

Im not so sure about the Europe but I thought, correct me if Im wrong.......... in the old days of aluminium masts, the cross sectional dimensions were fixed, and stiffness was given by how much aluminium went into the section, so a given flexibilty fore and aft had to be balanced by a similar lateral flexing. You choose the lateral flex for your weight and there should be a mast to fit. Then as C/fibre developed (and the Europe class, if nothing else has given us all plenty of development) manufacturers found that lateral stiffness could be delivered without compromising its longitudinal ability to flex, i.e. bend and depower. The weight of the helm could then be balanced on the sail, by means of fullness, height of fullness and leech tension. Changing a sail being more cost effective than a mast, the masts have become more uniform.

Im sure Jons reason is true also, and this, as well as the above has been mirrored in many other classes. Take the OK...... hull has a high tolerance of 12-15 stone, rigs in aluminium used to be classed into 3 groups, red/green/blue (I think?). Now the've taken Carbonfibre on its just one with a variety of sails. The finns the same, covered by 2 rigs over a massive weight range.. The Europe with a 20kilo range is by comparison quite small.

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