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damp_freddie View Drop Down
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Posts: 339 		Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: After Finishing
    Posted: 16 Nov 05 at 10:00pm
There is actually an example of this type of case given in my new rules book (in norwegian and english luckily)

To summarise, boats not racing are bound by the usual maritime safety regulations of the country or region.

A similar event happened, when the 'rules of the road' were not adhered to either. Howevr the committee found that they did not govern over , no police national laws and the protest was flung out - seems daft. No collisiion, just 'accidental' impedement.

If no one else can be bothered, I'll look it up if you ask- in the USA i think
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CurlyBen View Drop Down
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Posts: 539 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 8:02pm
All bar one of the oranised racing I've done has been tem racing with three or occasionally two minute starts - the normal pre race signals and flags are not one of my strongpoints! I know that you have no rights over a boat that is racing, but when two boats that are not racing meet whether they are under racing rules does make a differnence. When team racing we quite often chased oter boats down before the start (or at least tried to!) and how the rules apply can make a big difference there. The one minute bit was from the verbal SIs often given at the regattas I attended, and they did say the racing rules as opposed to the part 2 rules. I didn't think to check whereabouts that line came from, looking at it again it is obvious it only applies to part 2. I don't mean to sound difficult, but it helps to know I'm mis-interpreting rules!
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 7:45pm

a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 22.1"

This is a quote from the preambule to Part 2 "When boats meet" of the Rules. All other parts of RRS apply - including, and especially Rule 2!

Gordon
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 7:33pm

Yes but two points. The first is that you were originally arguing that the rules didn't start till 1 minute. The preparatory is normally 4 minutes. Second point is that 22.1 is extremely wide-ranging. You basically have no rights versus a boat that is racing. In some kinds of racing, it is extremely common to have boats around you racing while you are waiting for your start sequence.
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CurlyBen View Drop Down
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Posts: 539 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

You are still under the racing rules after you have finished racing and in particular 22.1 applies. The preamble to part 2 implies that a penalty to a non-racing boat under 22.1 is possible.



I was looking at the rules on the ISAF website - 01-04 rules but I doubt this has changed - and while you are right with what you quote, the preamble continues to say "A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.

a boat not racing shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 22.1"

Doesn't make any difference to this particular case, but if you can't be penalised under them then effectively the racing rules don't apply until the preparotory signal (other than 22.1 obviously)
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NeilP View Drop Down
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Posts: 271 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 10:56am

Spot on Gordon. If you have finished and impede or collide with a boat still racing, and they protest you, the the protest would have to be upheld. The penalty would depend on whether time penalties are available to the PC.

Neil
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 05 at 11:37pm

Just goes to show that not many people involved in our sport - including those who write SIs - actually read and understand the Rules.

In the (good) old days when yachts (including dinghies) has flag halyards they would replace their cruising pennant before racing with a rectangular racing pennant. Racing Rules would apply between boats flying their racing pennnants.

As I see it a boat having finished should keep clear of a yacht still racing. Should she infringe this rule she can be protested...and be penalised by the Protest Committee (even if the other boat was sailing in a separate event. Shoulkd it be unclear that one boat has not finished Part 2 rules apply. If it is clear that one boat is not, and has not been racing Coll Regs apply - and a boat can be penalised for infringing Coll Regs. This applies even on a duckpond

 

Gordon
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RC311 View Drop Down
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Posts: 5 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RC311 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 05 at 1:44pm
Thanks Stefan, your interpretations seems correct. I guess if there was a
collision, then the boat still racing would HAVE to protest anyway.
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 05 at 11:52am

Certainly there would have been grounds for redress, had a protest been filed in time, which I assume it wasn't. RRS 62.1b covers exactly this situation.

The only available penalty on the offending boats appears to be DSQ, unless the SIs make a time penalty available. See 64.1a. However it seems rather harsh and in practice I've never heard of this happening to a boat that is not racing.
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RC311 View Drop Down
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Posts: 5 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RC311 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 05 at 9:11am
Seems like we still don't have a definitive answer to the initial question.
Stefan and Reddeck are quite correct that the offending boat could be
protested under rule 22.1 - but what's the penalty? Idon't think it could
be called 'unfair sailing' because the incident was unintentional, so he
could not be dsq under rule 2. And what of the poor boat who was fouled
and lost places - I can't see any grounds for redress!

As stefan points out, this situation occurs in keelboat racing, and is also a
not uncommon situation in radio controlled racing when skippers
mentally switch off after the finish and sail back through the finishing
fleet.
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