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Who is right?

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CurlyBen View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 7:17pm
I was writing a nice long reply then Jamie said what I was thinking! Even if the cat doesn't break the letter of the rule it certainly breaks the spirit of it. At the point at which you could only just avoid collision there had been no indication that the give way boat had even seen you or heard your hail would anyone hear not take avoiding action and protest later? I'd punish both boats at a protest commitee but not sure what I'd say for who pays.
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 7:21pm

Originally posted by Jamie

if (the cat) just piled in to the B14 without making a reasonable attempt to avoid then surley it's the cats problem. 

The rules require the windward boat to keep clear. It is as simple as that. It is not a 50/50 responsibility. It was the B14's responsibility to keep a look out and keep clear.



Edited by Stefan Lloyd
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49erGBR735HSC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 7:46pm

I've read this thread over and over and a few things keep on entering my mind. The closing speed of the cat in those wind speeds would have been quite high. Looking at it from the cats point of view, being the boat who has right of way you have two options, tack the boat (when you have right of way) which is a timely operation, or duck a skiff which has its kite up and could accelarate or change its course at any time. The cat incorrectly hailed but there is no demand for that boat to hail in the first place. By the cat luffing up slightly, it might have been able to avoid the colision, however it didn't and that can't be accurately predicted. Cats are also harder to manouvere. At the end of the day, no-one but the insurance companies can decide who pays and your best bet is to give them as much information as possible, mentioning other boats which were in the area. If you retired, the cat sailors can claim that this was you admiting you were at fault. These things happen and I've been in almost the same situation on a 5000 going downwind with a cat approaching us upwind. The cat held its course and we were lucky to see her just in the nick of time, crash gybed the boat and went swimming. Didn't think twice about doing so or even after it happened because the cat had right of way.



Edited by 49erGBR735HSC
Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 9:38pm
Denis has it about right here. 

Having had long discussions about this, the fact that the B14 is changing course (ie for gusts as it has to to stay upright) makes it very difficult for the cat to avoid. 

Someone mentions average course, this has no bearing, the Cat has no requirement to predict the course that the B14 takes, only to react to it once it is clear that the B14 is not taking avoiding action. 

The only thing we would need to know to be 100% sure is did the cat take any avoiding action at all (dumping the main will only slow you down so much when doing 10+ kts up wind, ditto a hard head up (which might actually make it worse as there would then be a larger target area for the B14 to hit)).

Given we don't have all the facts I still think you would loose. 

You should have kept an eye out (sounds like you were on restricted waters anyway) and as soon as you got a hail you should have done something about it.

My rule is "if the kite is up keep a look out below"

Sailing at grafham this weekend in about the same wind and I'm doing 10+kts upwind and 16+ down - gotta keepum peeled.


Edited by Scooby_simon
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Jamie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 10:39pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Jamie

if (the cat) just piled in to the B14 without making a reasonable attempt to avoid then surley it's the cats problem. 

The rules require the windward boat to keep clear. It is as simple as that. It is not a 50/50 responsibility. It was the B14's responsibility to keep a look out and keep clear.

Not that simple, read rule 14.

Yes it is the b14 responsibility to keep a look out,

Yes the B14 is in the wrong in terms of windward Leeward.

No it isn't 50 / 50 responsibility but I don't think I ever claimed that it was. But this doesn't change the fact that you have to avoid collision if reasonably possible. In My book a tack is reasonable, as is a crash tack. Certainly luffing up towards the wind and yelling protest is reasonably possible. Certainly the lesser of the 2 evils.  

I'm not saying that the B14 is in the right. But The Cat Does not leave the collision with a clean concience either.

Simon: You are corect that the b14 average course doesn't have any rules impact. or "Requirement" but just keeping to what is "required" is often insufficient to avoid unpleasntness. When I look at a boat I have a right of way over, I always try to work out where they are heading in case I have to tell my helm to avoid a collision with them. If the Cat crew were doing this they would be able to see that the b14 was just fetching  for the mark. It's an assym so it is liable to go for bears away in gusts, so you can give it an educated guess on what it is likley to do. There is no Requirement for me to do this, but I don't want to hit another boat ever again So I do it anyway. This way if nothing else the unpleasentness of a collision can be avoided. regardless of what the rules say Don't hit stuff.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 11:16pm

Simon: You are corect that the b14 average course doesn't have any rules impact. or "Requirement" but just keeping to what is "required" is often insufficient to avoid unpleasntness. When I look at a boat I have a right of way over, I always try to work out where they are heading in case I have to tell my helm to avoid a collision with them. If the Cat crew were doing this they would be able to see that the b14 was just fetching  for the mark. It's an assym so it is liable to go for bears away in gusts, so you can give it an educated guess on what it is likley to do. There is no Requirement for me to do this, but I don't want to hit another boat ever again So I do it anyway. This way if nothing else the unpleasentness of a collision can be avoided. regardless of what the rules say Don't hit stuff.


I agree that this is the "right" thing to do; but this does not always have an impact on Protest Ctte's or insurance companies.

Others were getting into detailed discussions about what exactly was and was not required by the IRCAS and the RRS.  I was just clarifying what the RRS (IMO) have to say.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 05 at 3:44am

I will bet you £50 that the cat wins on insurance stakes with what you have told me! All that £50 goes to Children in Need!

By the way Jamie, have you tried to crash tack a cat? At the speed a good sailed cat goes above her pointing angle, the cat would have still hit the B14, maybe just skimming her. 100m is a very short distance on a cat, or any high speed sailing craft. The point is, the cat didn't need to tack  because she had right of way, whos to say she didn't head up to avoid the B14?



Edited by 49erGBR735HSC
Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 05 at 7:25am

Originally posted by Jamie

This way if nothing else the unpleasentness of a collision can be avoided. regardless of what the rules say Don't hit stuff.

That we can certainly agree on.

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 05 at 7:30am

Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC

If you retired, the cat sailors can claim that this was you admiting you were at fault.

Don't really think so. The outcome of protests is not supposed to affect insurance claims either; the insurance companies make their own decisions based on the facts they are presented with. The reason for this is that protest committees are (normally) volunteers while the insurers are professionals. It would not be fair to expect a protest committee to become in effect a small claims court, if costly repairs are involved. 

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Jamie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 05 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC

I will bet you £50 that the cat wins on insurance stakes with what you have told me! All that £50 goes to Children in Need!

By the way Jamie, have you tried to crash tack a cat? At the speed a good sailed cat goes above her pointing angle, the cat would have still hit the B14, maybe just skimming her. 100m is a very short distance on a cat, or any high speed sailing craft. The point is, the cat didn't need to tack  because she had right of way, whos to say she didn't head up to avoid the B14?

I was making an assumption based on what was written.

If the Cat had the rudders hard over when the collision happenned then they are fine because they made a reasonable attempt. It the only way to avoid a collision was to attempt a tack then they are obligated to try.

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