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Who is right?

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Jamie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who is right?
    Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 11:14pm

In terms of A simple windward Leeward collision you were in the wrong, I don't see that as a debate.

You did not see the craft that hit you, possibly bad observation on your part, but these things do happen, you cant avoid something you haven't seen. (Something I recently found out)

The hail was "starboard" so why would you be looking out for a collision? you are on starboard. It would be reasonable to assume that there were 2 other boats close to you coming port and starboard. Hails are not required, but misleading hails could be brought as an extenuating circumstance to a protest. ( if I were in the room I'd certainly mention it)

The rule says that collisions are to be avoided if reasonably possible. As was said above, capzize to avoid if you have to.  The other boat didn't make an effort (based on what you have said, so they are wrong there.)

The other boats crew said to you that they saw you 100 yards away. If they saw and were yelling starboard from that distance they could take avoiding action. This works against them in the protest.

Personally I would have thought that you could use the collision regulations and their admision that they were tracking you from so far away to good effect in a protest. You will probably still be flicked for the windward leeward element, just as you would if they had done the avoidance. But I would be suprised if you had to pay for the insurance claim / repairs because after all they hit you, and didn't have to. 

 



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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 6:55am

Originally posted by CurlyBen

Stefan - both boats are required to keep a proper look out!

They obviously were, since they were hailing!

This is rule 11, windward boat keeps clear, as simple as can be. Sometimes the rules are confusing but this is not one of those times. There is nothing remotely ambiguous about it. If you are reaching with a big kite, you have to keep looking underneath it, every few seconds if need be. You can't rely on other boats to keep the look-out for you.

 

 



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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 6:58am

Originally posted by Jamie

But I would be suprised if you had to pay for the insurance claim / repairs because after all they hit you, and didn't have to.

Prepare to be surprised then. I was hit by another boat that had every opportunity to keep clear of me and my insurance still had to pay. That bill ran into 4 figures.



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NeilP View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 10:41am

Are you asking for insurance purposes, or in terms of racing? A distinction needs to be made between the IRPCS laws and RRS. As far as the racing goes, both boats are in the wrong - you for windward/leeward, and the cat for the collision, which was clearly avoidable - they had to sail at least 100 metres in order to be in a position to hit you! Put like that, it almost sounds like it was deliberate!! That fact alone makes the insurance position a little bit sticky. Did the cat make any attempt to avoid the collision? If not, I would have thought that puts them at fault for insurance purposes. From what you describe, surely a quick luff was all that was needed to avoid the collision, and then I would agree with the concensus, you would clearly have been in the wrong. As it is, both boats are at fault under RRS. You retired, so no further penalty. A protest against the cat for the collision would be upheld, I would think.

Neil

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catmandoo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote catmandoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 1:06pm

As a cat sailor , I'm gobsmacked to think you mono hullers would think a cat would pile into anyone on purpose !!!!!, have any of you considered how cats are made , whilst they may be functionaly strong like an egg , impact strength is near to none !!!.like an egg. Theyu aren't cheap though unlike eggs !!!!

In most cases even a minor collision on a cats bow or anywhere can result in significant damage to the cat , most cat sailors avoid collisions at all costs because of this .

As always you can't second guess a Loony ! and above fragilty doesn't apply to most Hobbie cats , if you were unfortunate to meet a loony in an ole hobbie 18 21 etc tough you should be keeping a better look out.

 

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 1:39pm

Originally posted by NeilP

A distinction needs to be made between the IRPCS laws and RRS.

No it doesn't if both boats are racing, When you enter a race you agree to follow RRS. It you enter an open event, you sign normally sign explicitly that you are doing so, while for club events it is implicit.

Since I understand both boats here were racing, RRS is all that comes into it. If you ever have the pleasure of insurance companies arguing over a collision where you are involved with another racing boat, you will find it is RRS they look at to assign blame.

There have been several court cases worldwide involving RRS versus IRPCS, most recently regarding a collision between two yachts racing off St Tropez. Bizarrely, the case was heard in the USA. This also invoved a W/L collision and blame lay differently between an RRS view and an IRPCS view, because IRPCS assigns additional burdens to an "overtaking vessel" which RRS does not. Anyway, RRS was upheld, because both boats were racing and had agreed to follow RRS.

You will often hear cruising sailors incorrectly claim that RRS has no legal basis. Several courts worldwide have found otherwise. Conforming to RRS is effectively a contractual undertaking we enter into when we race. 

   

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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 2:24pm
I've had a very long conversation about this type of thing with a number of people and it will most probably come down to this.

1, You were windward boat
2, You were saling with the kite up
3, Your course was driven by the kite as it was up.
4, The other boat was coming up wind
5, There was a collision
6, By your own admission you had not seen them
7, By your own admission you were hailed and did not take any action to investigate the source or reason for the hail.
8, you were both racing under RRS.

Now here are some interesting bits.

A, as you had the kite up your course was dominated my the fact that the kite was up.  Did your course alter AT ALL during the 100m that the Cat said they were watching you - I would argue that is must have done as wind is not 100% atable (you said you were fully hiked so any gust would have caused you to have to bear off or capsize)
B, the other boat was sailing up wind and had seen you.
C, As you ignored the hail (as people have said a hail is not required) I feel that you have opened yourself up to all sorts of peoblems with insurance - Maybe a negligence claim for not taking action on the hail etc
D, As you were sailing with the kite up your course will have been chaning so the other boat may had thought that you (as the one with the burden to avoid) would have missed them.  Remember there is no requirement for either party to predict the other parties course, only react to it.
E, there was a collision that IMO is your fault because:

i, you were to windward
ii, you did not respond to a hail
iii, you took NO avoiding action (even when given a hail)
iiii, as it was blowing F3 I assume you were travelling at some speed.  As the other boat only has to react to your inevitable course changes (Gusts) once it becomes obvious you are not avoiding them they may only have a shot time to react (remember in that sort of wind I assume you are doing 10kts and the other boat (a cat) may have been doing 10-15kts upwind - you are on a VERY sticky wicket

But in your favour the other boat also took no avoiding action

On balance I think you would have lost the protest assuming you both had the same "skills with protest ctte's"

Basically people MUST remember that just because you cannot see; there maybe something there.  I was nearly speared bu a 5000 spi pole on sunday becasue they did not look before gybing, they just did it.  I find it un-believeable that people sail around and make manouvers without looking first. 


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Hector View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 2:38pm

First - the contention that the Cat should have avoided a collision because he saw the B14 100m away is wrong. The rule states that the cat (right of way boat): (a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the B14 is not keeping clear or giving room.

So 100m is irrelevant - the relevant distance is the distance when the cat sailor knew the B14 was not going to keep clear. On the (one sided) evidence, that was probably at considerably less than 100m and with a closing speed of around 20m/sec that would have given him a couple of seconds to avoid the collision. Here's a perfectly plausible version of events based on the evidence. 

- He saw you at around 100m , he hailed and you took no avoiding action so he hailed again and you still ignored him. Only then did he realise you hadn't seen him and that you  were about to Tbone him so he tried to avoid you and you hit him.

Pay up.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Hector

First - the contention that the Cat should have avoided a collision because he saw the B14 100m away is wrong. The rule states that the cat (right of way boat): (a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the B14 is not keeping clear or giving room.

So 100m is irrelevant - the relevant distance is the distance when the cat sailor knew the B14 was not going to keep clear. On the (one sided) evidence, that was probably at considerably less than 100m and with a closing speed of around 20m/sec that would have given him a couple of seconds to avoid the collision. Here's a perfectly plausible version of events based on the evidence. 

- He saw you at around 100m , he hailed and you took no avoiding action so he hailed again and you still ignored him. Only then did he realise you hadn't seen him and that you  were about to Tbone him so he tried to avoid you and you hit him.

Pay up.



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Jamie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 05 at 6:44pm

The contention that the cat should have seen the collision from 100m away and should have avoided it is not wrong. The cat was tracking the progress of the b14 for the 100 m, therefore they could see 2 things.

1)The average course of the boat.

2) the available escape routes that the b14 could take. 

So for the entire 100m the cat could see that the b14 was maintaining course along its racing line, and was not using the available escape routes. so they could see as the 2 boats closed that they were continuing on a collision course. As sailors they know the manouvering limitations of the boat they are sailing, so they know at what distance they can bug out of a collision.

It is as you get to this point of no return that you know that the other boat isn't keeping clear. So you at this point avoid. If this isn't the point that you know then no collision is avoidable for a right of way boat... ever. so what is the point of having the rule in the first place.

The origional post doesn't seem to make it clear whether the cat threw the helm over to try and avoid. If he did then It is the B14's problem if he just piled in to the B14 without making a reasonable attempt to avoid then surley it's the cats problem. 

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