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What classes will survive ?

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What classes will survive ?
    Posted: 01 Jul 08 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by getafix

kite surfing is boring in no wind.... but I don't see any
lack of uptake in that sport! when I was 14-18 wind surfing was massive,
we all bought boards and learnt to sail them but only ever bothered when
it was blowing 15knts+,

Many of the arguments people use for new boats are similar in some
ways to the arguments they used for new boards. In windsurfing, the
sport dumped most of the old gear- but it didn't benefit from it, it has
shrunk to a tiny fraction of what it used to be.

If the "we must change" line didn't work for windsurfing, why would it
work for dinghy sailing?


.so what if "skiffy" boats are rubbish on inland ponds in no wind or
completely un-controlable on open water in 9/10ths of a gale - it's the
big grin you get out of them when it's not doing either of these that
attracts.... wings, wires, assy spinnakers and carbon sticks all add to
sailing enjoyment, not detract IMHO.

If traps, wings etc add to your enjoyment that's great - but it doesn't
mean that they are necessarily the way to go for the future of the
sport.


I don't believe that if you offered visionairies of the past (I know I miss-
spelled that!) like Uffa Fox or Jack Holt modern materials, rig technology
and sail-making know-how that they'd dismiss it and stick with stitch-
and-glue ply or wood/ally sticks and cotton rags....

But Uffa, and especially Beecher Moore (Holt's marketing man) wrote
a great deal about the need for and appeal of boats that even in their day
were not leading-edge performers. The GP14 was never a really quick
boat, but Uffa and Beecher and Holt and many of their contemporaries
respected them and knew how they could help the sport.

That's very different from some people today, who say that the sport
should just aim at a single vision, full of assys and trapping off
wings.


why does entrenched class loyalty in the dinghy sailing world colour
people's views on the future?  you might LOVE the class of boat you sail
now, and if that's the case I say great, if there are a huge (or small) group
of enthusiasts who share your passion all the better.  I have sailed several
classes for 5yrs+ because I like the people who sail them and I like the
scene but I wouldn't argue any of them represents the future.By survival
we're talking about factors outside of design - manufacturing,
proliferation, class assoc's, support, funding, standards of competition,
accessibility.... but if we're talking about where dinghy sailing should go
in the future then "changing rooms" make overs of old designs like the
470 isn't the answer.

But why change all the boats? The first two one-design dinghy
classes ever created are both still racing today. The very first international
one design dinghy is more popular than the Moth, which is similar in
length. It's not as if good older classes have to die, or should die.

If you look for the future of the sport, wouldn't you look at the popular
and biggest-selling classes that are not suffering slumps in sales? That
list would be topped by the Opti and the Laser, from the '40s and '60s.

Maybe dinghy sailing isn't like other sports; maybe we don't have to
chuck all the old boats. Considering that sailing is very successful in
some ways (despite little support and expensive gear, it's a very popular
sport) maybe we're not doing it wrong?









Edited by Chris 249
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iwsmithuk View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iwsmithuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 08 at 3:34pm

[/QUOTE]

and go head-to-head with the musto skiff again Ian.... doesn't seem like
a sensible use of development resources to me.

The vortex might be a cosmetic abomination, but it is a lightweight
trapeze boat with an optional kite... it either services this 'niche' or at the
very least proves there's no long term commercial market- delete as we
all find appropriate.[/QUOTE]

But it wouldn't be against the MPS/700

Main about 10-11 metres, assy about 10-12. No racks, stable hull platform, soft sail.

Assy fun downwind, nice easy trapeze ride upwind, good single sail trapeze reaches,  easy enough to sail for people who can't put in the time to learn the MPS etc.

Good potential for kids progressing to MPS/700 and for old gits like me who aren't up to the really high performance skiffs.

It'll be interesting to see what the junior MPS from Harprecht(sp??) is going to be like but from what I've seen this is too depowered and aimed very much at the youth market only.

 

.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 08 at 3:40pm

I suggest Nick has a word with Joachim Harpprecht about his light skiff concept boat. As I understand it he is looking for a partner to build this.

The Light Skiff has been designed to compliment the MPS and not compete with it. It is also much better looking than the Vortex.

I would take it on myself but I don't have a sailing based business behind me that could support the launch of a new class. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 08 at 3:43pm
Right, Chris, the waterwag is one of the 1st one designs, but the 2nd (american lake based?) is causing trouble...The International 12 is the 1st International class?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iwsmithuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 08 at 4:00pm

Quote turnturtle

"....camp cynic..."

Ah yes... sorry... I see....misread it!

 

 

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getafix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 08 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by getafix

kite surfing is boring in no wind.... but I don't see any
lack of uptake in that sport! when I was 14-18 wind surfing was massive,
we all bought boards and learnt to sail them but only ever bothered when
it was blowing 15knts+,

Many of the arguments people use for new boats are similar in some
ways to the arguments they used for new boards. In windsurfing, the
sport dumped most of the old gear- but it didn't benefit from it, it has
shrunk to a tiny fraction of what it used to be.

If the "we must change" line didn't work for windsurfing, why would it
work for dinghy sailing?


.so what if "skiffy" boats are rubbish on inland ponds in no wind or
completely un-controlable on open water in 9/10ths of a gale - it's the
big grin you get out of them when it's not doing either of these that
attracts.... wings, wires, assy spinnakers and carbon sticks all add to
sailing enjoyment, not detract IMHO.

If traps, wings etc add to your enjoyment that's great - but it doesn't
mean that they are necessarily the way to go for the future of the
sport.


I don't believe that if you offered visionairies of the past (I know I miss-
spelled that!) like Uffa Fox or Jack Holt modern materials, rig technology
and sail-making know-how that they'd dismiss it and stick with stitch-
and-glue ply or wood/ally sticks and cotton rags....

But Uffa, and especially Beecher Moore (Holt's marketing man) wrote
a great deal about the need for and appeal of boats that even in their day
were not leading-edge performers. The GP14 was never a really quick
boat, but Uffa and Beecher and Holt and many of their contemporaries
respected them and knew how they could help the sport.

That's very different from some people today, who say that the sport
should just aim at a single vision, full of assys and trapping off
wings.


why does entrenched class loyalty in the dinghy sailing world colour
people's views on the future?  you might LOVE the class of boat you sail
now, and if that's the case I say great, if there are a huge (or small) group
of enthusiasts who share your passion all the better.  I have sailed several
classes for 5yrs+ because I like the people who sail them and I like the
scene but I wouldn't argue any of them represents the future.By survival
we're talking about factors outside of design - manufacturing,
proliferation, class assoc's, support, funding, standards of competition,
accessibility.... but if we're talking about where dinghy sailing should go
in the future then "changing rooms" make overs of old designs like the
470 isn't the answer.

But why change all the boats? The first two one-design dinghy
classes ever created are both still racing today. The very first international
one design dinghy is more popular than the Moth, which is similar in
length. It's not as if good older classes have to die, or should die.

If you look for the future of the sport, wouldn't you look at the popular
and biggest-selling classes that are not suffering slumps in sales? That
list would be topped by the Opti and the Laser, from the '40s and '60s.

Maybe dinghy sailing isn't like other sports; maybe we don't have to
chuck all the old boats. Considering that sailing is very successful in
some ways (despite little support and expensive gear, it's a very popular
sport) maybe we're not doing it wrong?









What set the rant off orginally?:

i) the weird desire to constantly update existing designs (e.g. Merlin-MRX, 505-Alto)

ii) the confusion that wanting something new means you want to 'kill-off' everything old

iii) the ethos that embracing new technologies, gear and techniques in nationally supported 'youth' structures is a bad thing because support must be maintained for designs that are simply well out of date because they are RYA/IYRU 'adopted' classes - why not use some energy getting the classes changed?

iv) the ethos that embracing new technologies, gear and techniques in nationally supported 'Olympic' structures is a bad thing because support must be maintained for designs that are simply well out of date because they are RYA/IYRU 'adopted' classes - why not use some energy getting the classes changed?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 08 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

The answer to this thread is a social economic and physiological one, mixed with a governing body class support.

The classes that will survive are the classes that reflect to mood of the relevant cultures that they exist in, and the amount of support they get from governing bodies / external sources.

Fast skiff types do an important job for the sport in terms of aspiration.

The slower displacement types provide real world use for most at a level of commitment / fitness that is achievable.

The other consideration is suitability to the prevailing sailing conditions.

But within these considerations there will be winners and losers.

And that is down to the ability to response to conditions presented to each class at any given time.

( I'll get back to this latter got to do something now.... )


just got back from my old man's 75th birthday lunch and I'm too peeved to finish this so you'll all have to wait... some interesting things your all talking about thought.

Edit: when I write p i ss ed this dam thing machine writes peeved - watch out George Orwell's about!


Edited by Jack Sparrow
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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 08 at 8:20pm
I do feel I have to dispel the myth of a potential 'easy' trapeze single hander: no trapeze single hander will ever be 'easy' to sail simply because it does take a fair amount of skill to trapeze and helm both at the same time......as my contender reminds me every time I sail it (did a spectacular flying leap to avoid going straight through the sail this very afternoon basically because I had my foot in the wrong place....) 

But a lightweight skiff would be fantastic for yoof, women and lighter men.  I've had a fair few calls about contenders I've been selling earlier in the year from guys in their late teens and have had to hope they didn't buy the boat just because it was very apparent they would be too light.  
the same, but different...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote NickA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 08 at 9:17pm
A lightweight skiff would indeed be great for lighter sailors - but only very good  lighter sailors.  It's an "easier to sail for the not so brilliant" single handed skiff that's wanted.

Meanwhile, fairly easy to sail, asymetric, trapeze single hander with no wings?  Sounds like my V3000. 

Admittedly, the jib is a bit of a handful when tacking and trimming and the fully battened North jib is too powerful for my 78kg in >F4.  (Short of adding some racks) add a smaller jib or drop it completely and move the mast forward to compensate and it might do the trick. 

Quite a few (admittedly biggish) blokes single handing Vago XLs too.  Yes I know, they're heavy and plastic and a bit too rolly and the free board is a bit high for comfortable trapezing - but the owners seem happy.

The boats are out there, just needs a little development (and class support)!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 08 at 5:45am
Originally posted by getafix



What set the rant off orginally?:i) the weird desire to constantly
update existing designs (e.g. Merlin-MRX, 505-Alto)

The AltO is not an update of an existing design, but a new class about to be
launched at the Southampton Boat Show. Yes, a 505 hull was used in the
three developement boats, but the new AltO hull bears almost no
resemblance to that of the 505, in fact it is 495cm long and the rig is
completely different!
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