New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Alto - Why?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Alto - Why?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 16>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Alto - Why?
    Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 10:49am
Remind me, how much is it to buy a fifties icon with too many bells and
whistles and nobody left alive who really knows what they all do? I heard
someone say twenty grand to kit it out good and proper and anyway I
really don't do veteran & vintage

Class? Ask me if I even care if anyone else buys one, I don't, if they don't
get it, I'm not going to worry too much, I've yet to meet a fellow owner of
an RS500 I know they're out there, but they're no help to me, not unless I
go to all the trouble of de masting, hitching the trailor, spending hours
dodging Artics, Chavs and other detritus of modern motorway life, sorry
been there done that got every T shirt going..

We'll see about the getting the money back when I come to sell the
RS500, unlikely is what I think..

Right now, I'm thinking, I wonder how tight to the wind I can make it go
with the kite up by canting the pole right down to leeward on a fetch but
stuffing the boat high, I'm getting gybing plate type thoughts..

The five oh hull shape has a good planing section, as well as a smooth
displacement shape, I can't think of another boat that can cope with all
wind conditions. I could see in the perfect regatta of a race in every wind
strength, this boat winning by average.

A B14? If you can get a good washer bag woman up front, maybe it'll
hold us off in a five, but the moment the mighty dragon puffs 25 knots, I
see sticky up bits of submerged boat with bodies thrashing around
nearby to dodge and maybe throw a bunch of bananas to...

As to the Alto moniker, totally agree it needs changing and it need a
marketing makeover if they want to sell them further afield, I also think
I'd be making more of the pole innovation and quoting some new "generic
name for this new type of boat, It's neither traditional nor a skiff.
I'd have called it "Alt Five Oh" the first of the new generation of
articulating rig system performance racing boat. Or some similar b-sh1t.

But I don't know what it was like at the show the next day, but when I
first got there Sat am it took me ages just to get to talk there was that
much interest, so I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets it.

But life these days is a little bit dumbed down so it's easy to appreciate
why more marketing effort is going to be necessary to push it further
afield.

But as I said before that's not my worry.

This is of more concern.

Edited by G.R.F
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 11:31am
Originally posted by alstorer

Progress would be a system that had the moveable
pole, but allowed (in breeze) you to raise and drop the kite without
touching those controls. Does the Alto allow this?


Yes - The pole moves freely in and out of the stainless guide you move
the guide rather than the pole by means of two ropes back to the cockpit
and a pulley system upfront attached to the stainless guide.

There's an entirely separate control for pulling the pole in and out.

I see the helm yanking the pole out and setting the angle at the hoist and
centering it on the drop whilst the crew deals with the kite. But I may be
wrong, it'll be fun working it out.
Back to Top
alstorer View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 02 Aug 07
Location: Cambridge
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 11:53am
Thankyou for finally giving the straight answer! Have fun finding out what she can do.
Back to Top
Iain C View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1113 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 12:09pm

You're right on a lot of the above re 5o5 costs etc.  However what most people do when joining a class is go second hand to start with, see if it's right for them, and then upgrade if they decide they enjoy sailing the boat.  Due to the age of both classes I'm going to hazard a guess and say that both the MPS and the 500 were new or nearly new and neither of those are right for you, and you are abouut to try your third new class.  My first Fireball was a £100 woodie that fell apart within a year, but was fine to tell me that the boat was right for me, and then I upgraded with two successive boats, my current one being an up to date white Winder design.

Because the top end 5o5s are so expensive, it means that if you go for something a little older you can get some right bargains, because all the top end fleet people are looking for that fraction of a percent improvement that a £1000 Bloodaxe high aspect board will give them.  If you are just wanting to handicap race it and are not worried about travelling or doing fleet events then who cares, as you'll be sailing it nowhere near it's PY anyway.  However it would be nice to know that if you did want to fleet race it and genuinely see how good you are, you have that option, as there are simply too many variables in my opinion with handicap racing.  You will get absolutely beautiful 2nd hand 5o5 for the price of a new Alto, that probably wont depreciate significantly.

I'm not saying don't buy the Alto, however as in previous posts you've identified issues such as struggling with handicaps in certain wind conditions, launching issues, not being able to get decent rig tuning info, not having an accurate barometer of how you are progressing, and not being able to talk to and get guidance from other owners of the same class, I'm just saying think carefully before taking the plunge with a brand new unproven class that would appear to be quite similar to the RS500 in many repsects (and not just design) yet very niche indeed in many ways.

And to answer your "how high can I go" question...not very high at all!  You are looking for a small flat kite with the CoE quite far back, squeezing airflow over the back of the main.  A big baggy kite down to leeward and well forward is just going to drag the bow downwind and create hideous lee helm.  If that's what you want to do, I really, really recommend trying a symmetric boat first, I think you might be pleasantly surprised!

 
RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"
Back to Top
Medway Maniac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 1:13pm

Surely the 505 link is now nothing more than a red herring? The current Alto appears to me to be a new boat which has a similar overall length and beam to a 505, and there the connection ends.

Still looks like it could be a nice all-round boat to sail, but I'd like to see the design finalised before I bought one. In its previous incarnation, my 9 stone crew and I could have coped - it was a depowered 505, but now the rig looks huge; there was talk on the stand on Saturday about reducing the rig size, but let's wait and see.
Wilsonian SC
3000 Class
Back to Top
Guest View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 21 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 1:27pm
I think Grumps wants an odd boat so no-one can tell how slow he really is  and he can blame it on the PY ....
Back to Top
ColH View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 11 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 242 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ColH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Surely the 505 link is now nothing more than a red herring? The current Alto appears to me to be a new boat which has a similar overall length and beam to a 505, and there the connection ends.

Well that's what I was thinking too. 'Everyone' is hung up on "Why mess with the 505?", but I got the impression from the creator (from the other thread, I think) that the 5-oh hull was simply the starting point. The aim was not stated as being to make a 'better 505'. I think the guy is probably regretting ever mentioning that he used a 5-oh hull to embark on the development....

Back to Top
Chas 505 View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king
Avatar

Joined: 19 Dec 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 119 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chas 505 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 5:45pm

Well I rather liked it..!  I like the thought of a boat that will re-introduce the joys of a proper hull shape that sails upwind properly in all wind conditions.  This design looks like it might just do that.

Actually the designer here is just doing what 505 sailors have done for the last 6 or so decades - explore and test things to see if they can make the boat go faster.  Although this is a little more extreme than most..!!  Clearly the 505 starting point has now vanished....if anything it looks more like like a Javelin/Osprey cross.

My suspicion is that he might just have designed a large rs500. Which is no bad thing - looks like the rs500 fleet has started life well, and is gathering a good following.

So should 505ers be concerned?  Is this the new ISO/L5000?  Will it tempt the 505 faithful?  Only time will tell, but I suspect it is more aimed at the club standard rs800 sailors who are feeling a bit on the lardy side/or want an easier boat to sail; or a L4000 sailor who wants a bit more power....or even pond sailors who actually want to be able to sail the gusts dowwind.....but the symetrical faithful?......nah.

On a positive note, the design (self tacker etc) does look like it will carry weight quite well, without taxing the crew too much.  Personally I would have gone for single rope kite launcher - but then the B14 class does pretty well.

So all in all good luck to him and should you want to try a totally different class, then please sign up for our "sail a 505", tryout day (Burton 29th March) at the website www.sail505.org.

GRF, an all new 505 costs from about £14k (but at that price, spend the extra to get the carbon and proper toys).  However, you don't actually need to spend that much.

Circa £7k (or less) could get you a Nationals winner - if you can find one (look at our website). The Danish boat that won the worlds last year is 8620 - about 12 years old - so buying new really isn't the issue.

If you are new to the fleet, the key is to get a well-tuned boat, as the competitive life and residual/resale values outstrip most other classes.  Get lucky, and 5k could get you into the top 10 at the nationals.

Chas



Edited by Chas 505
Life is too short.
Work Hard; Play Hard; Sail a 505
Back to Top
theycallmegod View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 27 Nov 07
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 262 		Post Options Post Options   Quote theycallmegod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by G.R.F



A B14? If you can get a good washer bag woman up front, maybe it'll
hold us off in a five, but the moment the mighty dragon puffs 25 knots, I
see sticky up bits of submerged boat with bodies thrashing around
nearby to dodge and maybe throw a bunch of bananas to...


GRF what is your problem with bagging the kite?
Have you ever done it?IMHO it's easier and it increases the life of the kite by three times at least...

Would you call the bowman on a 18footer a washerwoman?

Also, you say that b14's fall apart im breeze- they didn't do too badly at the tiger did they?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 08 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

I think Grumps wants an odd boat so no-one can tell how slow he really is  and
he can blame it on the PY ....

Don't worry, it shouldn't be too long now before we wander over there, to the land of six fingers to show
you and your mottely collection of meatheads, inbreds & tooth fairies what a fine transom the Alto has.


Originally posted by Iain C

I'm just saying think carefully before taking the plunge with a brand new unproven class
that would appear to be quite similar to the RS500 in many repsects (and not just design) yet very niche
indeed in many ways.


And to answer your "how high can I go" question...not very high at all!  You are looking for a small flat
kite with the CoE quite far back, squeezing airflow over the back of the main.  A big baggy kite down to
leeward and well forward is just going to drag the bow downwind and create hideous lee helm.  If that's
what you want to do, I really, really recommend trying a symmetric boat first, I think you might be
pleasantly surprised!


 


The only thing it really has in common with the 500, other than me, is the single trap. The 500 is a youf
boat I now realise, I don't think they expected grownups to buy it, their training is all about youf and the
max crew expectation is spotty youf and first girlfriend. I was mistaken, I probably only bought into it
because a lot on here were so anti, but it served me well to learn a tad more than I could in the 3000
another small persons boat. We'll see about the rest, no use speculating here but be assured I shall try all
sorts of wrinkles, and it'll be fun trying them.


Originally posted by theycallmegod


GRF what is your problem with bagging the kite?Have you ever done it?IMHO it's easier and it increases the
life of the kite by three times at least...Would you call the bowman on a 18footer a washerwoman?Also, you
say that b14's fall apart im breeze- they didn't do too badly at the tiger did they?


I don't have a problem it would be the crews, but we're both windsurfers who like things simple, a bloody
great laundry bag up front is hardly that, I'm sure I've seen Dumberers legs sticking out of it one time when
he fell head first into it. I definitely saw both Dumb & Dumberers legs go up in the air when their racks
snapped, straight into no 89 of 100 great sporting moments in my lifetime..
The bowman on an 18footer? That would be a convict bagwoman then most likely..
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 16>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy