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PY Inflation?
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 Aug 22 at 7:20am
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

.....and to add to my previous rant ;-)

Any handicap system based on returns and number crunching is not going to work on one off races anywhere.

The PY system wasn't (I think) intended to work on anything other than a longish series of races, say a spring series or summer series etc. where weather conditions can average out. Waste of time on one off's.

I'll shut up now as I don't want to upset anyone's Karma (too much) lol

So what became of the Hayling/Chichester Harbour system? I remember talking to someone around a year after they brought it in and the comment then was that the Solo fleet had done exceedingly well. What I dont know is if they tried to develop it further or scrapped it. I think they did it before the large scale changes to the PY system that came in 6-7 years ago, and this might have led to a reversion to type - all clubs that did do adjustments that I know of (small sample, 3) all reverted because they were all leaning towards lowering the number of fast boats and the "new" system was in line with their findings.

So what do you want? Wind indexed numbers for classes with very binary performance like the 420 could be a thing but relies upon accurate recording of the wind conditions by someone and a decent sample size across all conditions. There is no point in going for wind indexing if you make it less accurate than a single number!

I don't see tide indexing ever being anything other than a local adjustment because there are far too many variables and whilst I agree that on the whole the slow classes take the biggest hit an average of by how much is going to be quite difficult to compute and again if its no more accurate than the standard number why spend hours and hours working it out? 

Someone asked how many coastal clubs make returns - that data is available on the PY list on the RYA website.


Edited by Paramedic - 25 Aug 22 at 7:21am
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 22 at 9:51am
Where we sail in one race you can have tide in either direction, back eddies, tidal gateways, short tacking into spaces some boats can sail into and others cannot, wind in multiple directions and from F0 to F6.

On top of that there are boats that are very suited to beat and running (Solo, N12) others that revel in marginal planing conditions (Laser), assymetric classes (200,400) that will fail to perform if there are no reaches, classes that excel in heavy weather (420, Fireball).

A whole range of skill sets who might be attracted to one class vs. another, back in the day the bandit classes were boats that had optimising potential but largely sailed by less skilled.

And on top of that many of the front end of the "hot" fleets don't get involved in handicap racing except for Great Lakes.

So maybe the system is remarkably good in getting the cream to usually get to the top, and maybe occasionally throwing out some crumbs to others.

Best thing is not to take it too seriously ... and don't pay too much attention to  the 4th digit of the PY number, it implies a greater sensitivity than is possible. 
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 22 at 10:21am
Paramedic Smile

There are many variables that may hinder or help a boats performance during a race.

Many of these variables will be minimised if the PY is used across a series of races, say 10 or 12, with a natural corresponding variation in a particular variable.....wind strength for example.

Also wind strength is already catered for in the returns and resulting calculations. Every club regardless of location has stonkers and drifters and the results of these races are returned and then calculated. Variations in wind strength are common to all clubs..........The resulting PY must be used across a longish series.

Tidal currents are not common to all clubs so are a different kettle of fish.

and as I said earlier "How can we make the system less flawed".....by working on one issue at a time: Tide, because it's an isolated, predictable and documented variable that can be averaged out over a longish series.   

Get that done and then for the next trick (next century) perhaps sea state could be factored. Wink

Edited by Sussex Lad - 25 Aug 22 at 10:26am
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Posts: 126 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 22 at 10:26am
One thing about the RYA PN is it basically works.. yep not for everyone and also not for everyone all of the time.. It is about averages for a season in all conditions.. I've won a race in my 1151 handicap boat against a 1036 handicap .. Once.. Why? high winds and they had to reef. Normally their larger and taller sail area overcomes anything I can do..

Take the wrong boat to the wrong waters and you have no chance.

From my own point of view, too many boat manufacturers every other week have gone for a new all out planeing machines, that needs a lot of skill to make to perform and needs open water..

As someone American said  "in the UK They'll  find a puddle and  put a sailing club on it".

The Americans had their D-PN system, which they are dropping to be replaced by RYA -PN
In larger boats they use PHRF which has many different versions around the USA, some versions take account of tides / wind strengths, as well as them all using boat statistics.. I see pages of complaints about it....
There is no perfect system.. you can't put monitoring systems on every boat (yet) and on every point of the river / sea / lake,  for wind  /tide / sun / someone sneezing. Without that no system will ever be perfect
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Posts: 168 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dakota Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 22 at 12:46pm
Nailed it  Smile
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[/QUOTE]
In reality this will never work for various reasons:Lack of expertise within the club.Over burdening the club with another volunteer job that needs doing. It then gets done for a season, the volunteer gets some grief and then gets fed up with it
[/QUOTE]

SL, I totally get where you are coming from on the extra burden/lack of expertise along with internal criticism/debates etc which are part of every club's life. Here on the tidal Thames we have been pulling the PY system apart in a sense with a much faster boat in the X1 than the presently sailed Lasers and Ents and we've certainly experienced this with ups and downs - e.g. at one stage our Club Dinghy Committee assigned us 850, not quite sure where from (...yes, for a 16ft non-trapeze monohull with sym spinnaker). But things are now a bit more sensible around 900 - being the tidal adjustment from the still water 942 that we arrived at following testing at QMSC (with Andrew from there's help on data crunching i.e. pretty much the same as an RS400). The HISC adjustment system for us would in fact be to 919 but I think this is probably not enough.... Unless of course we are doing the downriver races when even 942 you could claim would penalise us.

But then on our normal 2hrs before HW up and down racing when it's very light winds and a spring tide, when we are going forwards against a tide and the Lasers/Ents are going backwards we rather easily make our handicap

But having said all this I still think it should be the clubs taking responsibility for any tidal or other adjustments (as HISC and the Great Lakes groups indeed have done) as I can only see even greater problems with a variation formula imposed from above.

One idea to overcome individual club capacity/politics/debates could be, very much like the GL group, to link up with other clubs that you believe have very similar tidal waters and develop your own common adjustments to the PY numbers. Do you think that would be something your sailing committee would be up for?

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Posts: 61 		Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 22 at 4:29pm
Does it really matter? All my club racing is PY (inland pond) and involves a whole variety of boats with a wide variation in helm ability. Anything from RS400 to Bosun - often sailed singlehanded - and the usual Laser, Aero and Solo. I have become quite competitive in my 40 year old tin rig Europe, even winning a few races. Other than being very enjoyable and providing racing experience I don't take it too seriously. I can easily beat the Aero sailors on the water yet often can't get past a well sailed Comet. 

The only reliable measure of my actual ability is when I go to Europe class events, I'm slow - but that's ok as it gives me something to work on. Europe.... fabulous boat by the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 22 at 9:06pm
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Edited by A2Z - 03 Sep 22 at 9:44pm
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 22 at 9:31am
Originally posted by A2Z

Just to be clear, I didn’t start this thread to bash the RYA or PY - I just thought it an interesting observation that the gap between fast and slow boats appeared to have been widening and that the Laser now rates about the same as the Radial did 10 years ago.

You answered the second part of your question on page one when you said 

Originally posted by A2Z

 I think the main reason is that PY is a relative rather than absolute scheme, and therefore 1100 in one year does not need to bear any relation to 1100 in another year. 

IIRC, when I started racing in 1965 the Firefly was the scratch boat, rated at 100. But I don't know if the PY committee maintained it as a basemark or allowed it to drift as is the case today (a look at the PN lists from the start until, say, 1970 would give the answer). Either method gives rise to anomalies as even the strictest one designs, (like the Firefly and Enterprise back in the '60s and the L@ser and many other SMODs more recently) develop and. presumably, get quicker in real terms.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 22 at 9:53am
I'm not sure when the benchmark idea was scrapped - either 60s or 70s, I think, if it isn't just a sailing myth brought about because the Firefly was 100 and yardsticks barely moved due to the returns method.

A benchmark makes little sense, despite other assertions on here over the years. If one boat stays the same, but the results don't bear that out, every other class would need to be altered to correct things.

As to the OP, 1, the Laser was hell on its pre-digital yardstick both radial and standard and 2, the Laser is boat of choice for many beginner racers on a budget, so the curve is weighted away from the usual mid fleet, mid level boat average.

No idea why fast boat yardstick are going down - maybe with reduced fleet numbers, more of the fast end are handicap racing?
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