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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Square tops
    Posted: 14 Jun 22 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

SMODS .... We've surely covered this type of organisation many times in recent years.  Yes - poorly run by the manufacturer and/or in league with a lacklustre class association it can work against the interests of the  owners.  However there are also examples where 'strong' or even just 'democratic' CA's  with control of the designs have nevertheless managed to pull down otherwise thriving classes in hindsight through naivety or just simple poor management.  Change, and as often the need to change, over time can trip up the most well meaning....  Ask owners what they want and you do not always get answers that automatically maintain  the class.   If the manufacturer cannot make a crust for whatever reason, including CA pressure, long term classes do tend to die.  In my experience those that thrive over time have proactive owners and proactive builders under any form of structure.  It is only an idiot builder who does not take into account the wishes or advice of the owners - and it matters not a jot under what formal structures exist.  Equally  if owners discount the input of the builder (usually or often the design rights holders) who must make a working profit and has to deal with such issues as 'warranty' and product liability it does not matter what CA's  might vote for or against.   And if you really still do not like even the concept of the modern SMOD then you still have plenty of choice out there...  Just be glad that you can choose.       

Totally agree , what ever the set up between CA and a manufacturer, boats have to be sold and money needs to be made . 
Re the two examples of manufacturers (Lightning and Supernova )  forcing change ( in the nicest way ) I gave.
1) The Lightning 368 sold more boats in the 18 months after the cockpit mould change that they had sold in the preceding decade. 
2) The Supernova now regularly gets over 100 at their nationals .

So looking back , who am I to say these decisions were wrong or taken in the wrong way  Smile
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 22 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Just got back from the Blaze Nationals and interested to note the event was won with a North sail not the latest Hartley version.


It can be a little sophist to say things like that with no background.
Was the sail a big deal? Noticeable edge in any way?

Or was it by any chance one of the lightest boats with one of the better helms who sailed a great series and deserved to win?

It's like back in the Jurassic era of Lasers, certain sails were thought to have tiny advantage, which became a huge issue to some people because when everything is identical apart from X, X is king, even if in reality, it only makes less difference than the drag factor of the helm's hairstyle.

With a Blaze, there are a lot of variables. Your man with the North sail might just have his rig set up to work well with the sail, rather than the sail itself being 'better'. He might just be better at windshifts, starts, waves etc.

But very few people ever got laughed at for choosing North Sails.
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 22 at 9:19pm
My only knowledge of north sails is very limited as it only  comes from the British moth class and now  the D-zero. Not overly impressed considering the price premium over other brands.  Smile
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 22 at 9:53am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Just got back from the Blaze Nationals and interested to note the event was won with a North sail not the latest Hartley version.


It can be a little sophist to say things like that with no background.
Was the sail a big deal? Noticeable edge in any way?

Or was it by any chance one of the lightest boats with one of the better helms who sailed a great series and deserved to win?

It's like back in the Jurassic era of Lasers, certain sails were thought to have tiny advantage, which became a huge issue to some people because when everything is identical apart from X, X is king, even if in reality, it only makes less difference than the drag factor of the helm's hairstyle.

With a Blaze, there are a lot of variables. Your man with the North sail might just have his rig set up to work well with the sail, rather than the sail itself being 'better'. He might just be better at windshifts, starts, waves etc.

But very few people ever got laughed at for choosing North Sails.

This was more of a reply to the suggestion that the claim that all updates to a SMOD class must automatically be performance enhancing and that new Blaze sail must be faster than the old. And, yes, the sailor using it is a past National Champion and was sailing a fairly recent epoxy boat.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 22 at 10:00am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

.....
This was more of a reply to the suggestion that the claim that all updates to a SMOD class must automatically be performance enhancing and that new Blaze sail must be faster than the old. And, yes, the sailor using it is a past National Champion and was sailing a fairly recent epoxy boat.
In reality, many 'updates' to a SMOD class are intended more as 'profit enhancing'.

Take the sail manufacture in-house and make more cash, or enable sub-contract manufacture from whichever source is cheaper for the next batch and slap your own label on it.

 
 
 
Not necessarily a bad thing, some savings might even get passed on to sailors....
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 22 at 11:50am

The Blaze has switched sail makers - yes - and shock horror the 'replaced' sail is at no apparent disadvantage.  I was not there this year but was at Paignton when Ben H. also won last year .. but with the more recent Hartley version on that occasion.  Cynics cannot argue it both ways with regard to the imagined class / manufacturer motivations surely ?!  A more reasonable and reasoned analysis might be that both sails are in fact very very similar in terms of performance.... the sort of thing that a good SMOD Class Association  or SMOD builder in fact would want in the first place.  (I'm sure a few of you will still be able find a bit of conspiracy in it .... somehow ! Wink)



Edited by Cirrus - 15 Jun 22 at 11:50am
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 22 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat

My only knowledge of north sails is very limited as it only  comes from the British moth class and now  the D-zero. Not overly impressed considering the price premium over other brands.  Smile

when given the choice, I would choose HD over North; but I fully accept North are an exceptionally good loft.

If no choice is on the menu, then I'd happily take North over other some other well known options from SMODland.  (I thought the D-Zero sail was very, very good and easy to tune in my non-expert opinion)

I now live on same street as a North Sails retail shop... it's right preppy garb around here.  LOL
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 22 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

.....
This was more of a reply to the suggestion that the claim that all updates to a SMOD class must automatically be performance enhancing and that new Blaze sail must be faster than the old. And, yes, the sailor using it is a past National Champion and was sailing a fairly recent epoxy boat.
In reality, many 'updates' to a SMOD class are intended more as 'profit enhancing'.

Take the sail manufacture in-house and make more cash, or enable sub-contract manufacture from whichever source is cheaper for the next batch and slap your own label on it.
 
Not necessarily a bad thing, some savings might even get passed on to sailors....

I think it's a bit of both, the new sail, built in house, is a little cheaper (about 8%) than the North but AIUI the North had been getting more expensive with every batch. Hartley Boats do have a new sail loft, sailmaker and some very expensive machinery to pay for so hopefully they'll be able to keep costs down over the next few years as last year's capital expenditure gets absorbed.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 22 at 3:50pm
Surely in SMOD land the key issues with sails are 1) how much the boat manufacturer is prepared to pay per sail 2) how much R&D goes into the original design.  I suspect the name on the label has little to do with the final product save to say that some sailmakers are more capable of manufacturing a consistent product than others.
Happily living in the past
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 22 at 5:39pm
1) yes - and mark up

2) yes - this too

Also, 3) longevity of competitive life
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