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Pico versus Topper
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 399 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pico versus Topper
    Posted: 14 Jun 22 at 11:29am
Our little club in Australia currently has five beaten up old Toppers for our sailing school. Parts are expensive and there is no other group of Toppers in the whole country, but despite their decrepitude they do their job very well.

A sailing school is selling a bunch of Picos cheaply. I've only sailed one once and it wasn't too bad. The parts issue is similar, but the boats are decades newer and they have the advantage of being able to be rigged as a doublehander.

Without wanting to start a class war, what do people here think about the comparitive merit of the two classes for use as training boats for kids?  What's the Pico's weight range?  Are there any issues to look for? It seems to be out of production - is that so?

We are also trying to get Optis going as a junior class. As we are on an inland dam in a country area and the fleet will always be small, we will then probably get the kids into Laser 4.7s; they seem to really like the Laser and in particular the fact that they can keep up with the adult fleet. There are no Picos racing in the country so like the Topper the Picos will be orphans but the same applies to any similar boat in that bracket.

Any opinions welcome.
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ColPrice2002 View Drop Down
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Posts: 222 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ColPrice2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 22 at 11:44am
Hi,

Couple of thoughts for you...

1) Toppers are polypropylene hull & decks. It's difficult to weld any hull damage - however it's a light weight hull.
2) Picos are significantly heavier.
3) Parts for Picos (UK) are expensive - there probably isn't much saving to be made in parts.
4)While a pico can be rigged  to double handed, it's cramped for teenagers - the jib doesn't haven't any tension in the luff (simple hook into the unstayed mast) so it doesn't really help performance.
5) You can get a Topper to plane - I've had a Pico out in 30+ knots and it just carves a trough in the water!

Colin
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 22 at 11:57am
Topper also more comfortable, Pico scrunches you up, no cockpit.
Robert
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sarg boland View Drop Down
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Posts: 25 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sarg boland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 22 at 12:01pm
I think for young people the Topper is your boat.  It is lighter and more manageable in strong winds than the Pico which they find quickly over powers them.  A Pico downwind in a blow can require a lot of strength to stop it heading up or ploughing into a wave (may be not a big issue inland).  The Topper requires less weight and less strength.  Also it is much easier to teach sail controls on Topper as these can be easily adjustable with the right kit.

For adults you need Picos - but does a Pico offer anything more than 4.7 apart from economy.
Fair winds
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Late starter View Drop Down
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Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 22 at 12:19pm
We've used Oppis, Toppers and Picos at the club for training and club boat use for years. They all  seem pretty tough and with a few exceptions seem to stand up well to hard use over several years. Personally as a large male adult I find all these boats uncomfortable, but I'm not the target market. As others have said Toppers are lighter and will suit lighter/younger people once they move out of Oppis. As to the Pico and a jib - yes we're done that but the jib is tiny and the cockpit is cramped so I'm not sure of the value of that other than with small crews. But you've covered all the usual junior classes, ie Oppis, Toppers, Picos, and Laser 4.7. These all have their merits, I sailed Lasers for years but I mistakenly put one of my daughters into a 4.7 way too early - even with the smaller sail they are still tippy and with hindsight she should have stayed in Toppers for another couple of seasons. Horses for courses really, I'd suggest thinking about the potential age range of helms you might get as that will help with your decision making.
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 22 at 5:30pm
I think other people have already covered the two boats different sailing abilities.

Another thing to check is the availability of spares for the Pico’s as people on forums/fb pages have complained of the problem of getting spares both in the UK and the USA. 


Edited by Grumpycat - 14 Jun 22 at 5:34pm
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 22 at 8:06pm
I would think the parts issue is mostly a matter of 'make and mend'?
We're talking learner boats and class rules are well out the window?

Toppers are still a pretty serious class for some people, couple of clubs I know have good racing for juniors, it seemed like a nice boat to sail when I borrowed one in about 1980 and the kids still like them.

Pico did great service in the beach holiday industry for some years.
Not a bad boat as such, but a less 'focused singlehander' concept.
A mate had one in Greece, sun wasn't kind to it in the long run.
When these things come your way at low enough cost you can write them off quickly, crack on.

I guess the high turnover sailing schools have moved on, I don't know what to? Feva?
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 22 at 8:20pm
Makes no difference to the learning experience beyond the Picos being newer so more life left. Go for it, bodge the spare parts as needed.
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tink View Drop Down
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 22 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by ColPrice2002

Hi,

Couple of thoughts for you...

1) Toppers are polypropylene hull & decks. It's difficult to weld any hull damage - however it's a light weight hull.
2) Picos are significantly heavier.
3) Parts for Picos (UK) are expensive - there probably isn't much saving to be made in parts.
4)While a pico can be rigged  to double handed, it's cramped for teenagers - the jib doesn't haven't any tension in the luff (simple hook into the unstayed mast) so it doesn't really help performance.
5) You can get a Topper to plane - I've had a Pico out in 30+ knots and it just carves a trough in the water!

Colin

Old Toppers are a sure bet Picos are a gamble - Re construction yes Toppers are polypropylene, but it’s an injection moulding and can accurately and repeatedly put strength where it’s needed. Picos are rotomoulded, some polyethylene is but inside a big heated hollow mould which is then rotated in all sorts of directions and the PE re-acts to create an aero bar with skin (very much simplified description) but it’s a lot less controllable so they end up heavy to ensure it’s strong enough. Both materials are equally hard to repair but you’re much less likely to need to do so with a Topper. 
Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Riv View Drop Down
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Posts: 353 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 22 at 6:33am
Our club has 6 of each. I'm the Bosun.
Kids prefer the Topper.
It's lighter
It's easier to pick up
It's a scow and easier to sail.
Spars are lighter than the Pico
It bounces better than the Pico
Ours are old and we have never had hull or foil problem.
Yes,dire corrosion issues due to salt water.
Picos have had problems with cracking in the rudder area
Picos require less maintenance
Picos must have trolleys,
Picos need covers
Picos are difficult to turn over, few handholds.
Picos are too heavy.
I'd stay with the Toppers and as you say, get them into Lase 4.7, we have 4 club Lasers and the work well.
Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.
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