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    Posted: 07 Jun 22 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by H2

Never had a square top before my H2 which also has a bendy carbon mast, very easy to make work in medium and strong winds but has taken us time as a class to make the rig work really well in light winds if that helps!


What are the symptoms of it 'not working well' in light winds?

The boat feels "sticky" in light winds, essentially its easy to stall the rig in light winds. We have had to learn how to flatten the fully battened sail so that the flow remains attached. This has been achieved by reducing rig tension to straighten the mast whilst also experimenting with kicker to control the roach twist. Put another way - when the H2 first came along it seemed like we could sail to our PY in medium or heavy winds but when it went light we got a total kicking in PY racing but after several years of trial and error we have found some new "gears" that keep the boat powered up as the breeze falls. Hope that helps?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 22 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by H2

Never had a square top before my H2 which also has a bendy carbon mast, very easy to make work in medium and strong winds but has taken us time as a class to make the rig work really well in light winds if that helps!


What are the symptoms of it 'not working well' in light winds?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 22 at 7:29pm
See the old thread I bumped.
I also found a thread about the re-hash of the RS400 rig, when they tried a square top main and rowed back to just changing the cloth:    

 




https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7237&PN=4&title=rs400-proposed-changes



    
Divided opinion. some were very positive about the square top, but as I recall, it looked very nice but got spanked by Merlins around the cans?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 22 at 7:28pm
Never had a square top before my H2 which also has a bendy carbon mast, very easy to make work in medium and strong winds but has taken us time as a class to make the rig work really well in light winds if that helps!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 22 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by ChrisI

There's no question that for us a square top rather than a pin head is not fashion but a key part of the design - in light wind conditions and esp when tide and wind are from the same direction we go forwards when other boats are going backwards.


That's just area high up though?
You can think of a square top as either a triangular sail with roach added by a long top batten, or as a triangle with the top cut off.

You could get the same light air performance with a taller mast and more triangular sail?

It's all comparative and with a SMOD you don't really have a sensible framework to say square top is 'better'.  Better performace per sq ft of sail? Better performance within the limits of mast length? Better performance within a £ budget?                                                                         
                          

In a development class, we're talking about best performance within an arbitrary set of rules which 'tax' roach to arbitrary degrees.                                                    
                          

So what baseline do we use when evaluating a square top's all round performance?                                                                  

Presumably what we want is a rig which keeps the heeling moment constant as the wind increases above the design point of the crew hiking/trapezing to the max? Is that more about the squareness of the top or the characteristics of the mast etc? Can an elliptical sail ever be as good in this respect?                       
          
 How do we model this when designing a rig? How many rigs are actually rigorously designed and how many are just a case of sketching a sail and see how it goes?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 22 at 4:26pm
There's no question that for us a square top rather than a pin head is not fashion but a key part of the design - in light wind conditions and esp when tide and wind are from the same direction we go forwards when other boats are going backwards.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 22 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by ChrisI

Originally posted by Mozzy


I actually think square tops are easier to get to work with a solid mast, like those used by cats rather than a whippy carbon mast seen in some other classes (skiffs). So I think they can be made to work with a pretty solid mast which is designed with very little compliance. Cats go for rotating masts which are very stiff and need less in the way of stays to keep them upright. Then use sheet tension, Cunningham and battens to control the stability of sail (response to gusts). 


But doesn't the 'gust response' you get in a cat with a stiff aluminium mast come from the fact there is no kicker tensioning the leach i.e. the gust hits and the mainsail clew rises slightly (and comes inboard slightly) opening the top of the sail...?


If you're thinking about e.g. Dart 18, there is no kicker, but high leach tension with a 6:1 main sheet on a traveller? Easing sheet is more like easing the vang on a dinghy?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 22 at 4:15pm
Weight aloft is also worth thinking about, if you can put the same sail area mostly as high up with a fat head sail on a shorter mast, that is a big saving in pitching moment, which will help perforamce in choppy sea.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 22 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by Mozzy


I actually think square tops are easier to get to work with a solid mast, like those used by cats rather than a whippy carbon mast seen in some other classes (skiffs). So I think they can be made to work with a pretty solid mast which is designed with very little compliance. Cats go for rotating masts which are very stiff and need less in the way of stays to keep them upright. Then use sheet tension, Cunningham and battens to control the stability of sail (response to gusts). 


But doesn't the 'gust response' you get in a cat with a stiff aluminium mast come from the fact there is no kicker tensioning the leach i.e. the gust hits and the mainsail clew rises slightly (and comes inboard slightly) opening the top of the sail...?

Edited by ChrisI - 07 Jun 22 at 4:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 22 at 4:06pm
Mozzy makes some good points.


 
I'd  add that cats developed their rigs mostly without the masthead asy's that need a lot of stays to resist the forward halyard tension.
The upper shrouds on a skiff rig should be making the mast tip move back and not to leeward?
These issues make a lot of pre-bend in the upper mast a sound approach?
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