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sarg boland View Drop Down
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Posts: 25 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sarg boland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Another club closure
    Posted: 24 May 22 at 10:08am
My immediate response is disqualify any two handed boats who can not bother to record their crews name - maybe another thread! 
Fair winds
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 11:08am
Originally posted by sarg boland

My immediate response is disqualify any two handed boats who can not bother to record their crews name - maybe another thread! 

My immediate response is to DSQ all Solos, as a matter of principle. LOL

[I'll get my coat]


Edited by fab100 - 24 May 22 at 11:34am
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 1:55pm
I was intrigued how the same boat came 9th and 24th.  But anyhow… this has been one of the most interesting threads in a while and I agree with much of it.  

I was particularly taken by Clive’s note that standards are too high for newbies to be able to join in.  I agree with this and have first hand experience of a friend of mine.  He lived next to the lake, he can afford a boat, he has sufficient spare time and so he joined our club.  He is a bright, fit, successful professional person but spent a long time struggling to finish better than last and, not totally surprisingly, the novelty of losing nearly wore off.  
The barriers to taking up dinghy racing are high.  The cost (which some dispute but is real), the time, the range of skills, the time commitment and perhaps most importantly the difficulty with effective learning are real challenges. On the plus side, the rewards are worth it and those same factors can act as a barrier to leaving.
In tennis everyone - even (especially!) the bored housewives gets professional coaching at least once a week.  Standards of club tennis must therefore be higher, in absolute terms, than the standard of club sailing.  But you can learn quickly at tennis (which itself a rewarding experience) and soon compete with others with many years experience. And then, matches are always graded so you’ll not play someone too far out of your level.   That is much harder in sailing. 
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

Re coaching I think what the mid/rear end sailors want (further back you go the more they want it) is a top sailor - or someone much better than they are - to get in their boat and sail it with them. This identifies any major boat handling issues, immediately highlights any major boat set up problems and - most importantly - gives a huge confidence boost that their boat really is as fast as the rest if they do the right thing with it. If they retain 10 of the 100 things they learn in an hour they'll go better.

start practice, follow my leader, tacking on the whistle etc have their place but we don't all learn in the same way.


What you really want for coaching is somebody who's a good enough sailor and who has some actual talent as a teacher. Another thread maybe.
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by Mozzy

Apart from two races at last years endeavour, I don't think I have finished in the back half of a class fleet race since sailing 49ers in 2006. 

And yet, despite beating the boat that came 2nd at the 800 nationals last year, and sailing what I felt was almost a faultless race, this below happened... and it's not the only time, I quite often get completely thumped in club races. 

Two days later we took the lead in the Monday pursuit with 20 odd minutes to go. The boat that finished behind us about 10 minutes behind at the finish (and we still go beat by almost a leg by a moth!!). 

I still do the races because it's fun, a bit of a shared experience with everyone who battles the course and conditions. I pay attention to other boats in my class in terms of judging my performance. And if there are no other boat in my class it's still a fun day on the water. 

For people who are racing at a high level, then I can see why they would avoid handicap racing. If I was struggling to get time in a boat ahead of an event I wanted to do well in, I would much rather practice on my own than take part in a handicap race. 
 
Handicap racing is really good for people who don't really care about 'getting better', they largely know where they sit, but the vagaries of handicap racing mixes things us enough but without shining a light too bright on anyone's shortcomings. It also lets them keep interest in the sport by racing different boats.

But (and bringing it back to topic) I believe it can be detrimental to people new to the sport. Seeing your progress through a fleet over the first year or two of racing is great to 'hook' people in to the sport. Handicap racing muddies the waters in a sport where performance and results can be hard to correlate anyway. It also makes it harder to simply copy where other boats go and how they sail. 

When I started (before having any training / coaching) I used to just copy the other topper sailors at my club. Sit where they sat, heeled the boat how they heeled. Followed their course. And I measured my success by how long in to a race I could see them well enough to copy.. and then as I got better by how many minute behind I was, then how many seconds. 

So, has the lack of class racing made it harder for new people to the sport to improve and understand racing?  Has this made it harder for clubs to survive? 




Some interesting points. The PY fanbois don't need to convince us, they need to convince people who are not currently racing much at all. When it comes to engaging outsiders, there's nothing like a fleet of Dragons or Etchells along the Green at Cowes, people can see who's in front and will watch. Even an OD fleet of RC boats will often gather some spectators. PY race with boats all over the lake, like watching traffic in the one way system.
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 9:50pm
Think you have this the wrong way round. As most sailors are py racing .
You have to convince the majority of sailors that class racing is best and the future of sailing .  LOL
And it takes it back to my point ,if you sail py pursuits everyone knows who is winning.  Smile


Edited by Grumpycat - 24 May 22 at 9:58pm
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3419 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 6:08am
Class racing would take years to get any where near to handicap, over 90% of racing is handicap, slight bit of guess work, only Lasers, solos and Enterprise, would be able to do it. More than half of sailors would have to change their boat.
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 6:55am
"Some interesting points. The PY fanbois don't need to convince us, they need to convince people who are not currently racing much at all. When it comes to engaging outsiders, there's nothing like a fleet of Dragons or Etchells along the Green at Cowes, people can see who's in front and will watch. Even an OD fleet of RC boats will often gather some spectators. PY race with boats all over the lake, like watching traffic in the one way system."

Certainly welcome to that view but I sail / race and don't see racing as a spectator sport. I find it hard believe an outsider would be any more interested. Maybe as a spectacle of boats milling about yes absolutely but I think you are seeing with your own eyes to discern any difference between Class & PY.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 6:56am
Originally posted by 423zero

Class racing would take years to get any where near to handicap, over 90% of racing is handicap, slight bit of guess work, only Lasers, solos and Enterprise, would be able to do it. More than half of sailors would have to change their boat.

Is there any data to support “90% of racing is handicap”?

I suspect that there are plenty of clubs where the majority are class racing.

Maybe the shift to handicap racing is both the cause and symptom of decline?
Happily living in the past
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 7:06am
I have no idea DY but most likely hotspots of both and hybrid with mini fleets within PY at others. Do you not think? 
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