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eric_c View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 May 22 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by fab100

.....

The roads across the country nowadays are clogged with the lycra clad on their expensive bikes, none of them competing against others, just cruising in-company (it seems to me). It never used to be like that on the roads pre Wiggins and Hoy. ....



Frankly, that's ill informed nonsense.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/jun/16/pedal-ins-patchouli-bikeology-americas-forgotten-1970s-cycle-boom

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/when-did-it-all-start-to-go-downhill-for-mountain-biking-9202637.html

Cycling has had a 'peak' in the English speaking world about every 20 to  25 years 1950, 1970, 1995, 2020. In the early 50s, my Dad was big into cycling, doing a bit of racing, a fair bit of touring, a fair bit of getting from A to B. There were a lot of bikes sold postwar, then it tailed off. I have photos of hundreds of them out for rides in black and white. In the 60s, they all bought motorbikes as far as I can tell, a bit like many who bought bikes  in the last 10 years have been buying e-bikes and e-scooters lately.
New bike sales have recently been depressed by covid supply chain issues, some in the industry are saying the boom is over.
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 22 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by eric_c

 

I think it might be time to get used to the idea that not everything can grow, all of the time.


Fine "survive" not "grow".

Same principle applies, don't be so bloody literal. Bring back iGRF.

I'm outta here
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 22 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Sussex Lad

If we see an adult novice sailing heeled, bad trim with sails flapping but otherwise safe do we have a duty as better sailors to give advice?

Don't know about 'duty' but I will proffer a "would you mind if I offered you a few thoughts that might help you?". I'll even stage-whisper from the patrol boat (we now have to call them) "let the down haul off" to a back-marker on a Wednesday night.

As well as the talks, the coaching, the book...

Once had over a dozen Cadets out, helms with eye's covered and 'crew's mischief time', where they were given free reign to set things wrongly and discover if the helm could tell the difference. They loved it; bit stressful preventing any crashes tho. Also got a cheer from the back in the briefing when, in a discussion on senses we decided the main relevance of sense of smell was smelly wetsuits and I announced that meant they should wash their own stinky kit, not rely on mum and dad to to it.

Discrete advice is great so long as you've checked out if it's wanted. Books, talks and Coaching could be seen as part of an agreement whereby if folk have signed up or paid for something then permission to teach is implicit. Brilliant, it's spreading the word.

I was just wondering about Jim's excellent comment:

"Well to my mind success is ordinary folks having fun on the water."


Giving advice is never as straightforward as it seems and giving advice to youngsters is very different to giving it to adults. I get your point about club sailing being "too good" but putting pressure on those lower down the ability ladder to improve, to catch up can be seen as unhelpful.

At what stage do 1&2 adult beginners become experienced sailors? At what point do they stop being suitable recipients of advice from those who are good?






Edited by Sussex Lad - 20 May 22 at 4:18pm
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 22 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Just musing, but maybe the future is in "Watersports Clubs", something like a WPSNA set up, a facility for changing, eating, drinking, socialising, boat/paddleboard/wing foil/canoe/kayak/rowing boat storage, gym with a great slipway alongside a large piece of water, with racing, training and coaching.  Families could be members for life with the possibility of dipping in and out of different watersports.  The facility would be delivered by employees and those members who wanted to get involved, but the set up would directed by the participant/members.

Maybe this is already the direction of travel from some successful clubs?

Something not like WPNSA, then David, somewhere the changing rooms are not inadequate and leave you feeling stickier than before you showered, somewhere with a bit of soul, decent beer in glasses not the cheapest plastic and 'club' prices not resort prices. Personally, I'd rather be in Salcombe or Fowey or Frensham with their downsides (or anywhere, frankly) than WPNSA.

Worth looking back at some of iGRFs posts (yes, really) about when his club let in the non-sailors, who then took over and nearly killed the place as a sailing club.

That model works for Sunsail and the like with their beach clubs in sunny climes but not sure many can afford the fortnightly holiday premium for 52 weeks a year
Great book for Club Sailors here
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 22 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by fab100

...
Good lord, talk about grasping the wrong end of the stick.

To grow, sports have to .....



I think it might be time to get used to the idea that not everything can grow, all of the time.

Sailing will find it hard to grow. There is ever more competition from different sports.
The world has changed, less people can afford the time or cash to sail than in the past.

We should be worrying about providing quality sailing for those who want it and not worry that other sports are more popular or that more people sailed last century.

Of course a few people who want to be important on a club committee might do well to shftt their club's focus to paddleboards, wild swimming, jetskis or whatever, because sailing doesn't need every single club which grew from demand in the 60s. But you may find that paddleboarders and wild swimmers don't need these clubs either. If they want clubs at all, it might well be 'clubs' which don't have premises and simply organise activity, often in a different place each week.
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The Q View Drop Down
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Posts: 126 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 22 at 3:14pm
Ozzytub is a man in my style, 43 years sailing and all boats £1500 or less.
Even my current mini keelboat has cost less than that. Though the budget will be busted later this year with £1000 on a new main and jib.
The only difference is most years I manage about 60days sailing, 52 Sundays, + 7 days regatta week+ plus the odd 2 Dayer.

One of the problems in keeping newbies is they think they need all the latest equipment, and are attracted by the latest go faster boat. Unfortunately a go faster boat normally falls over a lot until you've built up the skill to sail it.
So either the cost of the latest go faster frightens them off, or capsizing the thing a lot frightens them off if they can afford it.
Still sailing in circles
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 22 at 3:05pm
Just musing, but maybe the future is in "Watersports Clubs", something like a WPSNA set up, a facility for changing, eating, drinking, socialising, boat/paddleboard/wing foil/canoe/kayak/rowing boat storage, gym with a great slipway alongside a large piece of water, with racing, training and coaching.  Families could be members for life with the possibility of dipping in and out of different watersports.  The facility would be delivered by employees and those members who wanted to get involved, but the set up would directed by the participant/members.

Maybe this is already the direction of travel from some successful clubs?
Happily living in the past
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 22 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

If we see an adult novice sailing heeled, bad trim with sails flapping but otherwise safe do we have a duty as better sailors to give advice?

Don't know about 'duty' but I will proffer a "would you mind if I offered you a few thoughts that might help you?". I'll even stage-whisper from the patrol boat (we now have to call them) "let the down haul off" to a back-marker on a Wednesday night.

As well as the talks, the coaching, the book...

Once had over a dozen Cadets out, helms with eye's covered and 'crew's mischief time', where they were given free reign to set things wrongly and discover if the helm could tell the difference. They loved it; bit stressful preventing any crashes tho. Also got a cheer from the back in the briefing when, in a discussion on senses we decided the main relevance of sense of smell was smelly wetsuits and I announced that meant they should wash their own stinky kit, not rely on mum and dad to to it.
Great book for Club Sailors here
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 22 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by fab100

......

But activities that have taken off like paddle-boarding, cycling and the like are largely side-stepping the element of competing against others and thereby those learning curves. Which I suppose echoes school sports where everyone has to be a winner these days and there's no such thing as losing.


Cycling has been through, umm, cycles, of popularity over the past 100+ years.
The part of it which endures is probably the high-end competitive part, and the basic transport part.

I thnk the mass appeal of paddle boards will fade, but what is its relevance  to the problem of dinghy clubs losing membership? If you think people want to sail dnghies on the same non-competitive basis, yet in a club environment, the evidence suggests you are wrong. Otherwise, what is this 'but paddleboards' whataboutism actually saying?

I suspect your views about school sport are 25 years out of date too.

Good lord, talk about grasping the wrong end of the stick.

To grow, sports have to more than replace natural wastage. And competitive dinghy sailing is, unlike (non-competitive, that's part of the point) growing-like-topsy cycling and paddle boarding, largely failing to do that (of course there are always exceptions, in club and classes)

The roads across the country nowadays are clogged with the lycra clad on their expensive bikes, none of them competing against others, just cruising in-company (it seems to me). It never used to be like that on the roads pre Wiggins and Hoy. Paddleboards are a totally new thing but have hugely taken off, we can all see that.

And the '20 years-out-of-date' thing; well guess what, those are the kids now in their 30s with the budget and choosing to buy carbon-fibre bikes and lycra, rather than a racing dinghy and not competing (yes a generalisation)
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 22 at 1:35pm
If we see an adult novice sailing heeled, bad trim with sails flapping but otherwise safe do we have a duty as better sailors to give advice?
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