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Another club closure

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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Another club closure
    Posted: 16 May 22 at 12:21pm
OK, here's where I am, I am in a minority group in sailing, I live a fairly blameless life, I don't appreciate being told I need to change, don't think I do need to change.
My sailing is done in a 'Last of the summer wine' style, more fun and games than effing and blinding other sailors out of the way, I have been known to throw a wet sponge in curmudgeons direction.
Robert
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 22 at 12:21pm
All this talk of 'inclusivity'.
    
   
Implies there's lots of 'relevant' people out there who 'we' are 'excluding'
   
  
Why are these people not doing stuff that 'we' want to join in with?

 
  
Isn't it a bit paternalsitic (or something) to think that 'we' need to provide for 'them'?  In reality, in lots of other fields, young and diverse people do stuff, start stuff, make stuff happen, which attracts all sorts including white middle aged boat owners.

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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 22 at 11:31am
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Originally posted by turnturtle

Also - shout out to Sussex Lad for shining a torch on the monoculture of dinghy sailing, if organised dinghy racing in the UK wanted to change, it would have done it by now. 




I'll take that at face value so thank you TT  Smile

The sad thing is that all the discussions in the past regarding sexist attitude, lack of racial diversity, homophobia and how to promote the sport etc. have been token gestures or now at least appear to have been...........change from the status quo isn't wanted.

I have worked professionally in the past, and am still interested in the concept of human change. How to understand and let go of fixed unhelpful or destructive belief systems and ideas in individuals and groups (extended to organisations). The framework has been humanistic. Professionally the work has been with Social Services and various Children's charities. The theory can get quite jargony and technical (deliberately steered clear of that here, it ain't always helpful) but it isn't quackery. 

Currently with the world seemingly going in one direction I am determined to demonstrate that there is another direction available, one that is inclusive,  less divisive.

If anyone wants more on how this might apply to SC's  PM

Thanks for your posts, SL. Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 22 at 11:30am
Originally posted by CT249

....

I'm not at all sure that windsurfing in its boom days was any more superficial than dinghy sailing or anything else in its boom days. In fact many of us who were in the industry say that the problem essentially was the opposite - it wasn't superficial enough.

Windsurfing became focussed on the dedicated junkies who would ditch work (or change jobs) around the wind and change boards every few months. Those dedicated people are too rare to make a proper base for a sport.

"Boat sailing" seems to be currently being driven into the same corner by WS and the industry. Funnily enough, very few of those in the driving seat actually sail the sort of craft they want everyone else to sail. It's a classic case of "do as a I do, not as I say" whereas when the sport was booming, the opinion leaders normally sailed the boats they wanted others to sail.

Here's an interesting thing - look at the people from WS, the sailing media etc and see how many of them sail the sort of craft they claim to be the future of the sport. Almost none of them do. They just want OTHER people to spend their time, effort and money.  It's an interesting contrast to sailing in its growth days and to my only other sport (cycling) where most of the opinion leaders practise what they preach. No wonder the sport is losing ground,  when those who want to control it are too gutless to practise what they preach. 


In my vew, too many RYA and WS people too focused on the olympics and getting TV coverage. But as with cycling, there's not many people wanting to get involved on the competitiv side at a budget level. Sailing could be cheap, buy an old Laser or join a club like mine with some old Lasers and sailagainst toher old Lasers. But it'seasier to find people who will spend several grad ona boat and not use it much. Same with bikes, lots of peope buying shiny bikes and not even wearing the tyres out. Business keeps wating to sell you new stuff, so mountain bikes have evolved  to be  no fun on a lane,so you want a gravel bike. Media tell you about new stuff, because advertisers like that, and because readers will click on shiny stuff not articles telling them it's fun to do up an old clunker and just get out there.
Same as it ever was.

Which is why some clubs will forego trying to broadly appeal and just quietly get on with providing racing for GP14s and Solos. For many clubs, it's a formula that's worked for 50 years, through a fw ups and downs.
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 22 at 11:29am
Originally posted by NicolaJayne

Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Originally posted by turnturtle

Also - shout out to Sussex Lad for shining a torch on the monoculture of dinghy sailing, if organised dinghy racing in the UK wanted to change, it would have done it by now. 




I'll take that at face value so thank you TT  Smile

The sad thing is that all the discussions in the past regarding sexist attitude, lack of racial diversity, homophobia and how to promote the sport etc. have been token gestures or now at least appear to have been...........change from the status quo isn't wanted.

I have worked professionally in the past, and am still interested in the concept of human change. How to understand and let go of fixed unhelpful or destructive belief systems and ideas in individuals and groups (extended to organisations). The framework has been humanistic. Professionally the work has been with Social Services and various Children's charities. The theory can get quite jargony and technical (deliberately steered clear of that here, it ain't always helpful) but it isn't quackery. 

Currently with the world seemingly going in one direction I am determined to demonstrate that there is another direction available, one that is inclusive,  less divisive.

If anyone wants more on how this might apply to SC's  PM


little or no point bothering  

 previous attempts  just result in a doubling down  and  retrenchment , meanwhile other  activities whether new  or old activities that  have previous  ignored the adult  recreational  market  go from strength to strength  


The problem is Nicola Jayne.....

.....I enjoy sailing dinghies and have made some good friends at the club. Cry LOL
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NicolaJayne View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NicolaJayne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 22 at 11:20am
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

Originally posted by turnturtle

Also - shout out to Sussex Lad for shining a torch on the monoculture of dinghy sailing, if organised dinghy racing in the UK wanted to change, it would have done it by now. 




I'll take that at face value so thank you TT  Smile

The sad thing is that all the discussions in the past regarding sexist attitude, lack of racial diversity, homophobia and how to promote the sport etc. have been token gestures or now at least appear to have been...........change from the status quo isn't wanted.

I have worked professionally in the past, and am still interested in the concept of human change. How to understand and let go of fixed unhelpful or destructive belief systems and ideas in individuals and groups (extended to organisations). The framework has been humanistic. Professionally the work has been with Social Services and various Children's charities. The theory can get quite jargony and technical (deliberately steered clear of that here, it ain't always helpful) but it isn't quackery. 

Currently with the world seemingly going in one direction I am determined to demonstrate that there is another direction available, one that is inclusive,  less divisive.

If anyone wants more on how this might apply to SC's  PM


little or no point bothering  

 previous attempts  just result in a doubling down  and  retrenchment , meanwhile other  activities whether new  or old activities that  have previous  ignored the adult  recreational  market  go from strength to strength  
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 22 at 11:10am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Also - shout out to Sussex Lad for shining a torch on the monoculture of dinghy sailing, if organised dinghy racing in the UK wanted to change, it would have done it by now. 




I'll take that at face value so thank you TT  Smile

The sad thing is that all the discussions in the past regarding sexist attitude, lack of racial diversity, homophobia and how to promote the sport etc. have been token gestures or now at least appear to have been...........change from the status quo isn't wanted.

I have worked professionally in the past, and am still interested in the concept of human change. How to understand and let go of fixed unhelpful or destructive belief systems and ideas in individuals and groups (extended to organisations). The framework has been humanistic. Professionally the work has been with Social Services and various Children's charities. The theory can get quite jargony and technical (deliberately steered clear of that here, it ain't always helpful) but it isn't quackery. 

Currently with the world seemingly going in one direction I am determined to demonstrate that there is another direction available, one that is inclusive,  less divisive.

If anyone wants more on how this might apply to SC's  PM

Edited by Sussex Lad - 16 May 22 at 11:12am
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 22 at 11:08am
Originally posted by davidyacht

\
The appeal of windsurfing when it boomed was that it did away with all of this junk, however like many new sports it was relatively superficial and those who participated did not buy into a lifetime activity, but ticked a box off a list … then onto mountain biking … snowboarding … wild water swimming etc.

I'm not at all sure that windsurfing in its boom days was any more superficial than dinghy sailing or anything else in its boom days. In fact many of us who were in the industry say that the problem essentially was the opposite - it wasn't "superficial" enough.

Windsurfing became focussed on the dedicated junkies who would ditch work (or change jobs) around the wind and change boards every few months. Those dedicated people are too rare to make a proper base for a sport. Other people may seem superficial but in fact they were dead keen - but they had families, and jobs.

They weren't actually superficial, but they were driven away from the sport by an industry that thought that anyone who had a life elsewhere was superficial - and that's doom for any sport.

"Boat sailing" seems to be currently being driven into the same corner by WS and the industry. Funnily enough, very few of those in the driving seat actually sail the sort of craft they want everyone else to sail. It's a classic case of "do as a I do, not as I say" whereas when the sport was booming, the opinion leaders normally sailed the boats they wanted others to sail.



Edited by CT249 - 16 May 22 at 11:29am
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 22 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

The monoculture and fixed beliefs/belief systems within sailing generally are the very things that thwart any ability to adapt.........those qualities are also what many folk within the sport find comforting.

Attempting to achieve broader appeal is not what most of you want. Some of you have said that explicitly others have inferred it. In that respect sailing will remain "exclusive" in the real meaning of the word IMO. Fair enough, it provides structure and remains predictable in an otherwise scary world. 

As I said earlier, clubs vary in attitude and vibe. Those that can steer clear of the old school way of doing things will always have broader appeal......if.....they can get folk through the door.

It would seem that commercial centres can do this to some degree. Regardless of what we may think about big business involvement in our leisure centres, business is infinitely adaptable if the bottom line dictates. They have no interest in exclusivity.

I suppose the fantasy club setup could be a volunteer/family run club that looks like a commercial one.


Achieving broader appeal as things stand is not going to happen, it ain't wanted.


Business is ultimately not interested in sailing, it will turn to where the money is. It is also not really interested in the long term either. Any sensible business wants its money wthin a few years. I know plenty of commercial and semi-commercial operations in sailing, from dinghy-hire through one man/one yacht sea schools to big sail training organisations. These things come and go, but I don't think they are really growing strongly on the whole. It might be interesting to know how numbers of people working in such businesses are changing. A lot oare not making a real living, it's either fill-in jobs or 'paying hobby' where instructors gret their sailing paid for or their yachts subsidised to top up their pensions.

Again, it's an area where looking at what happens abroad might be interesting.
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 22 at 11:00am
Originally posted by eric_c

[QUOTE=423zero]

It isn't 1978 any more, Daily Mirror readers are not excited by the idea of spending a fortnight's wages on a plywood DIY project and learning to sail it around their local gravel pit before taking it on their family week camping holiday in Wales or Cornwall.
Sailing is now a niche thing for a section of the public that's interested. The days when big numbers were keen are over, now it's about providing good quality sailing for those who want it, not trying to market it to people who've got plenty else to do. Like vinyl records, the market is now different, smaller, irrelevant to the majority, but still there if you've got a quality offering.
The worst way forwards would be to offer a dumbed down product or service which pleases nobody.
  The other thing is, sailing does actually extend beyond the UK. It does also extend beyond dinghies. Maybe people should stop trying to rewind pond sailing in the Midlands to last century and look at what sorts of sailing are doing OK elsewhere in the World.

Plenty of people around the world seem to be excited by the idea of spending a week's wage on a pop-out plank and paddling it around their local puddle at about 3 knots. They are doing it in their tens of thousands, or more, all around the world.*

Meanwhile, sailing is obsessed with the idea that people should spend a minimum of a couple of months wage on a hyperformance boat that they can't learn to sail on a gravel pit or in Cornwall.

Sailing in the UK and Midlands seems to be doing as well, or better, than just about anywhere in the world. The UK style seems to be working better than any other style.

* God knows why....as someone who got into windsurfing as a kid I can remember in the '70s and early '80s grabbing an oar or a paddle and standing on a Windsurfer (TM) while teaching other people. It was slow and fairly crap (IMHO) then and still is - but the fact that it's now so enormously popular has a big lesson for sailing.
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