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Do Different View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 4:28pm
I think 505s are the mutts nuts. New ones might cost £30k and yes for all but the top flight that is pretty bonkers money. However if the top flight keep buying new they never have to actually part with £30 because they have a bullet proof built 2nd hand one to sell on for decent money. Any real deficiency in performance of a 2nd hand boat is never going to be noticeable to mid fleet or club sailers and certainly less than the difference attributable to differences is operator skill.

Hang on it's mid March, surely there's a discussion on the new PY list I should be worried about.     
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Mike Holt View Drop Down
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Posts: 58 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 5:33pm
Toys are expensive, it is easy to spend £10k on a mountain bike...
But, back to the original point of the thread, you can buy a boat capable of winning the 505 Worlds for the same money as that mountain bike. With that, you get the option to race all over the world at venues like Garda, South of France, Cork this year for the Worlds, Santa Cruz next year against large high quality fleets.
The challenge for the class is to make sure enough people do buy new boats to maintain a supply of used boats for everyone's budget.
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by Mike Holt

Toys are expensive, it is easy to spend £10k on a mountain bike...
But, back to the original point of the thread, you can buy a boat capable of winning the 505 Worlds for the same money as that mountain bike. With that, you get the option to race all over the world at venues like Garda, South of France, Cork this year for the Worlds, Santa Cruz next year against large high quality fleets.
The challenge for the class is to make sure enough people do buy new boats to maintain a supply of used boats for everyone's budget.

I had a look the other day. In the USA and Aus there's a reasonable range of 505s listed on the class website. But in the UK, there's no second hand 505s built this century, not that's unique, it's the same for virtually every class, sadly. Not even much choice on the ubiquitous ILCA. 
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Posts: 356 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 6:36pm
Hmmnn... I did a photo shoot just the other day with a recent purchase 2nd hand boat - a cracker too and in the right hands perfectly capable of winning races at World Championship level. One of our club members has just purchased a 'late/recent' 2nd hand boat so they are there, they do come up (I know that another top helm has just sold his boat) but people all across Europe are looking at Cork, then Santa Cruz and wanting to get in now....

D
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Mark Aged 42 View Drop Down
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Posts: 98 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 22 at 8:11am
Originally posted by fab100

You can buy an ISAF plaqued ILCA for circa £7k or an event illegal Laser from Laser Performance for £4.8k. That's over 30% less, in line with the original question.
Is anyone knowingly opting to buy the cheaper version (that they probably won't be able to sell when the time comes)? I doubt it.
The simple answer to that is YES. If you are a weekend warrior, then the LP boat makes perfect sense. They cost only slightly more than a very good 2nd hand Laser/ILCA. If you keep the boat for 10 years or more then that is a small investment for a lot of racing in a new boat.
The assumption is that your club allows this, obviously.
I have no dog in this fight, to be clear.
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Posts: 382 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 22 at 10:14am
Originally posted by Mark Aged 42

Originally posted by fab100

You can buy an ISAF plaqued ILCA for circa £7k or an event illegal Laser from Laser Performance for £4.8k. That's over 30% less, in line with the original question.
Is anyone knowingly opting to buy the cheaper version (that they probably won't be able to sell when the time comes)? I doubt it.
The simple answer to that is YES. If you are a weekend warrior, then the LP boat makes perfect sense. They cost only slightly more than a very good 2nd hand Laser/ILCA. If you keep the boat for 10 years or more then that is a small investment for a lot of racing in a new boat.
The assumption is that your club allows this, obviously.
I have no dog in this fight, to be clear.

I considered it myself, due to the shortage of half-decent used ILCAs.
The same money gets you a boat which some squad wannabe has beaten half to death at Portland, and on the M3 every third weekend for the last 4 years.
Decided to 'wait and see' though.

There are some 505s for sale on Facebook which ought to provide some club level fun and learning for someone. For less than it would cost to upgrade my old Laser.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 22 at 12:22pm
problem is Graeme wants it all... decent competition, loads of participation and a handicap system he thinks is right.  It's a prism of delusion... PY works as well as any other handicap system, but it is what it is.


Once you accept disparate craft 'racing' each other on essentially corrected time trial, is either just good fun with a competitive aspect, or not for you, then you can accept class racing for what it is too.


And if  class racing is your real bag, and you have the time, money and other person to partner with, please, I dare you all, give me one valid reason why the 505 wouldn't feature in your armada?


It's aspirational sailing - and still, imho, the king of amateur dinghy racing. I can't see a role for a lesser version - even at club level.  I'd honestly rather have a Fireball if symmetric was the route I was going down.


Edited by turnturtle - 16 Mar 22 at 12:23pm
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 22 at 1:08pm
Not a member of the class so not really for me to say what 505 Assoc should do. However from what I have been told by fellow happy triers who do own a 505 the class is absolutely brilliant at advising and helping anyone keen enough to rock up with the best can afford. It is not always about having the shiniest boat in the fleet, the most respect is gained by getting out of bed and having a go.
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 22 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

problem is Graeme wants it all... decent competition, loads of participation and a handicap system he thinks is right.  It's a prism of delusion... 

and a boat that weighs very little
but doesn't fall over when left in the water unattended
and doesn't have control lines he doesn't understand
and has a user-friendly assymetric not a 'proper' spinnaker
and can be sailed competitively, single handed, by someone under-height and under-weight
and has been invented in the last 3 years
and has a bandit handicap
and is a monohull dinghy

But you cannae change the laws of physics

I'd like a rich, tall, fit supercrew (who understands gybing centreboards) to buy and fund my 505 helming for them. I'd not want a 505SE (in iPhone-speak). But weirdly I'm not the deluded one.

"Prism of delusion" is going straight into my favourite phrases list, Jimbo
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 22 at 3:23pm
I do understand the reason for the monster kite and trick foils, so I can see why a 505SE for new money wouldn't appeal to a really (but not quite top 1% no judgement intended) competitive racer and not many others would stump up new money for simply fun. But setting the 505 circuit aside I've crewed one pre-monster kite and they are a lovely boat in that form and bonus, modest sized people can crew them and even reach with the kite. In the 90s I knew of two husband and wife teams who regularly sailed on the N. Sea off East Anglia both in club handicap and class meetings.    There could be some mileage in unofficial old rules classic FiveOh sub group. I guess they are old enough for CVRDA meets.   

edit add. I'm thinking  "waste not, want not" I know some of the ones with wood foredecks might be beyond hope but in the main they were built strong as.
 


Edited by Do Different - 16 Mar 22 at 3:34pm
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