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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: 50S
    Posted: 16 Mar 22 at 10:14am
Originally posted by Mark Aged 42

Originally posted by fab100

You can buy an ISAF plaqued ILCA for circa £7k or an event illegal Laser from Laser Performance for £4.8k. That's over 30% less, in line with the original question.
Is anyone knowingly opting to buy the cheaper version (that they probably won't be able to sell when the time comes)? I doubt it.
The simple answer to that is YES. If you are a weekend warrior, then the LP boat makes perfect sense. They cost only slightly more than a very good 2nd hand Laser/ILCA. If you keep the boat for 10 years or more then that is a small investment for a lot of racing in a new boat.
The assumption is that your club allows this, obviously.
I have no dog in this fight, to be clear.

I considered it myself, due to the shortage of half-decent used ILCAs.
The same money gets you a boat which some squad wannabe has beaten half to death at Portland, and on the M3 every third weekend for the last 4 years.
Decided to 'wait and see' though.

There are some 505s for sale on Facebook which ought to provide some club level fun and learning for someone. For less than it would cost to upgrade my old Laser.
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Mark Aged 42 View Drop Down
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Posts: 98 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 22 at 8:11am
Originally posted by fab100

You can buy an ISAF plaqued ILCA for circa £7k or an event illegal Laser from Laser Performance for £4.8k. That's over 30% less, in line with the original question.
Is anyone knowingly opting to buy the cheaper version (that they probably won't be able to sell when the time comes)? I doubt it.
The simple answer to that is YES. If you are a weekend warrior, then the LP boat makes perfect sense. They cost only slightly more than a very good 2nd hand Laser/ILCA. If you keep the boat for 10 years or more then that is a small investment for a lot of racing in a new boat.
The assumption is that your club allows this, obviously.
I have no dog in this fight, to be clear.
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 6:36pm
Hmmnn... I did a photo shoot just the other day with a recent purchase 2nd hand boat - a cracker too and in the right hands perfectly capable of winning races at World Championship level. One of our club members has just purchased a 'late/recent' 2nd hand boat so they are there, they do come up (I know that another top helm has just sold his boat) but people all across Europe are looking at Cork, then Santa Cruz and wanting to get in now....

D
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by Mike Holt

Toys are expensive, it is easy to spend £10k on a mountain bike...
But, back to the original point of the thread, you can buy a boat capable of winning the 505 Worlds for the same money as that mountain bike. With that, you get the option to race all over the world at venues like Garda, South of France, Cork this year for the Worlds, Santa Cruz next year against large high quality fleets.
The challenge for the class is to make sure enough people do buy new boats to maintain a supply of used boats for everyone's budget.

I had a look the other day. In the USA and Aus there's a reasonable range of 505s listed on the class website. But in the UK, there's no second hand 505s built this century, not that's unique, it's the same for virtually every class, sadly. Not even much choice on the ubiquitous ILCA. 
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Mike Holt View Drop Down
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Posts: 58 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 5:33pm
Toys are expensive, it is easy to spend £10k on a mountain bike...
But, back to the original point of the thread, you can buy a boat capable of winning the 505 Worlds for the same money as that mountain bike. With that, you get the option to race all over the world at venues like Garda, South of France, Cork this year for the Worlds, Santa Cruz next year against large high quality fleets.
The challenge for the class is to make sure enough people do buy new boats to maintain a supply of used boats for everyone's budget.
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 4:28pm
I think 505s are the mutts nuts. New ones might cost £30k and yes for all but the top flight that is pretty bonkers money. However if the top flight keep buying new they never have to actually part with £30 because they have a bullet proof built 2nd hand one to sell on for decent money. Any real deficiency in performance of a 2nd hand boat is never going to be noticeable to mid fleet or club sailers and certainly less than the difference attributable to differences is operator skill.

Hang on it's mid March, surely there's a discussion on the new PY list I should be worried about.     
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Rupert

So, how is it better, except for their usage?


They will award boats a handicap that have no chance with the other lot, obviously with the self interest of greater participation, but then so should the bloody PYAG, what are they for if not to afford greater participation?

They're not, they are a self absorbed group more concerned with protecting their obtuse view of the status quo. So out of touch with what is actually going on at grass roots level it beggars belief.

Great lakes mob, bless them for any other faults, do at least care for the sport we all enjoy, I can't imagine any one of them is/are getting rich off the back of what they do, and they are at least doing SOMETHING.

Maybe they could form themselves into some sort of British Handicap racing association and act as a ruling body for those of us that are none aligned to any class in particular.

Isn't one of the things the Great Lakes mob do, to look closely at the PYs of classes with small numbers of races in the returns?  Basically, statistically any class that's putting in less than 1000 returned races is going to have huge 'error bars' on the best guess of its number. Some classes are getting PYs with only a handful of boats racing around the country. However flawed the RYA's number crunching may be, you can only process the data you have. Garbage In, Garbage Out.
It doesn't matter, I don't need a spreadsheet to tell me who had a good start, who went the right way up the beat, who capsized, who was fast down the reaches or who spent too much time getting in 'situations' with other boats. However wrong the PY numbers are, it's pretty rare to go to a club prizegiving and think whoever got the cup was hopeless and should have been mid fleet. Even in OD racing, the best sailor doesn't always win. It doesn't matter.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Joined: 07 Mar 11
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Posts: 6499 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by Rupert

So, how is it better, except for their usage?


They will award boats a handicap that have no chance with the other lot, obviously with the self interest of greater participation, but then so should the bloody PYAG, what are they for if not to afford greater participation?

They're not, they are a self absorbed group more concerned with protecting their obtuse view of the status quo. So out of touch with what is actually going on at grass roots level it beggars belief.

Great lakes mob, bless them for any other faults, do at least care for the sport we all enjoy, I can't imagine any one of them is/are getting rich off the back of what they do, and they are at least doing SOMETHING.

Maybe they could form themselves into some sort of British Handicap racing association and act as a ruling body for those of us that are none aligned to any class in particular.

Edited by iGRF - 15 Mar 22 at 1:23pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 10:42am
The "great lakes mob" use Portsmouth Yardskick. They just tweak it to Suit their needs and sailing areas. As suggested by the PYAG. And they do it in a way that wouldn't suit small lakes or tidal areas. So, how is it better, except for their usage?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 22 at 7:12am
According to Laser performance, they are selling more Lasers than all of the single hander sales added together, worldwide, before anyone says who can believe them, this is a company, they are bound by selling laws.

Edited by 423zero - 15 Mar 22 at 7:13am
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