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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Joined: 29 Mar 05
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    Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by davidyacht

Apart from Sailjuice events, the only benefit that I can see of PY is to truck up in an old (cheap) boat and be in with a shout for a good result, since few people bother to invest heavily in boats except for one design racing

I understand that you like OD racing, but you let your preference blind you to facts. There are many, many people who spend lots of money on boats that will race almost exclusively in handicap fleets. In my handicap fleet we have a National 18, some Finns, Aero’s, RS1/2/400s, Fireballs, Musto’s, Scorpions etc all of which probably cost more than the price of a new Laser.

If I had/have no choice I would go PY racing, but sailing in a 15+ one design fleet works better for me at all sorts of levels.  If It wasn’t for the strength of my local one design (Solo) fleet I would buy an H2 for £10k and race in our handicap fleet, the PY number would be of no interest.

My point is that if handicap racing is your only option then you could quite easily buy a lovely older 505 and have a blast … without the need to purchase a 50S
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Posts: 1312 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 6:56pm
Spot on DavidYacht. An old rules FiveOh with the small kite could arguably be a demon on Club courses or my particular favourite an old style Olympic triangle sausage course. 
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by A2Z

.....
I understand that you like OD racing, but you let your preference blind you to facts. There are many, many people who spend lots of money on boats that will race almost exclusively in handicap fleets. In my handicap fleet we have a National 18, some Finns, Aero’s, RS1/2/400s, Fireballs, Musto’s, Scorpions etc all of which probably cost more than the price of a new Laser.


There are lots of people Sailing in lots of PY fleets, but how many of them are really there for the racing?  As in most amateur sports, a lot of people don't really care if some spreadsheet shows they came 13th. They want to get out there, enjoy doing the activity, get some exercise and compare their performance against their mates or their own personal goals. Just as lots of people buy expensive  bicycles to ride around with their mates..
  Surely most people who buy a Fireball or a Musto etc and race it in the PY fleet are mostly concerned about either  the challenge of getting better at sailing a technical boat, or their performance against either boats of the same class or very similar classes? Some people I would go as far as to say they buy a boat they like that's 'different' and really are not interested in having their personal performance compared to anyone else's. They want to buy a shiny toy, go sailing and socialise with a beer or two.
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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by eric_c

  Surely most people who buy a Fireball or a Musto etc and race it in the PY fleet are mostly concerned about either  the challenge of getting better at sailing a technical boat, or their performance against either boats of the same class or very similar classes? Some people I would go as far as to say they buy a boat they like that's 'different' and really are not interested in having their personal performance compared to anyone else's. They want to buy a shiny toy, go sailing and socialise with a beer or two.

Indeed. Class racing is (was) the primary purpose for me, but those ‘special’ races endure in the memory. One such was a breezy winter series club race and we were chasing a good team in their Hornet. According to the PY they were a bit faster than us but in that breeze, on that day, the Fireball came into her own and we got past and made it stick. When their Hornet was replaced by a 5o the challenge became seeing how long we could stay in touch. 
Nick
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 7:42pm
Ok Graeme I fallen for the bait … have never suggested that handicap is for plebs, just that for me one design racing overcomes many of the failings of PY, I also find that handicap racing does not tend to provide the social catalyst that one design achieves, mainly because you know the results without waiting for them to pinned up on the board.  IMO it is worth compromising the thrill of the ride for the quality of the racing.  

However each to their own, so if resigned to handicap racing and PY in particular, I do participate in a bit of handicap racing, and my observation is that the cream invariably floats to the top, especially over the length of a series, which tends to cancel out the vagaries of wind and tide.  Also I have raced in PY races in probably ten different classes, and I am pretty sure that I have always finished in approximately the same part of the fleet, regardless of the boat.  I am unconvinced that The PY system can be significantly improved.

However, I look at the increasing number of mates who are happy to ruin a good walk by holding a stick and swinging it at a ball, and it strikes me that their activity relies on an arbitrary personal handicap system, and I wonder if this is what you are really looking for?  
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 7:55pm
Mmmm. We seem to have distilled down to 2 main thoughts .
1) sail the boat you like best.
AND.
2) Class racing is best .
Not sure these thoughts work well together  LOL.
For the record , I am definitely in the sail the boat you like best camp, not that a surprise to anyone to thats looks at my boat buying history  Smile.

PS If you want to know your place at the end of a handicap race, just sail pursuits. Simples . Smile




Edited by Grumpycat - 14 Mar 22 at 8:12pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by eric_c


Originally posted by A2Z

.....
I understand that you like OD racing, but you let your preference blind you to facts. There are many, many people who spend lots of money on boats that will race almost exclusively in handicap fleets. In my handicap fleet we have a National 18, some Finns, Aero’s, RS1/2/400s, Fireballs, Musto’s, Scorpions etc all of which probably cost more than the price of a new Laser.
There are lots of people Sailing in lots of PY fleets, but how many of them are really there for the racing?  As in most amateur sports, a lot of people don't really care if some spreadsheet shows they came 13th. They want to get out there, enjoy doing the activity, get some exercise and compare their performance against their mates or their own personal goals. Just as lots of people buy expensive  bicycles to ride around with their mates..
  Surely most people who buy a Fireball or a Musto etc and race it in the PY fleet are mostly concerned about either  the challenge of getting better at sailing a technical boat, or their performance against either boats of the same class or very similar classes? Some people I would go as far as to say they buy a boat they like that's 'different' and really are not interested in having their personal performance compared to anyone else's. They want to buy a shiny toy, go sailing and socialise with a beer or two.

How condescending is that?! Of course there are many people like that, but there are many who take it seriously. Equally there are plenty in our Laser fleet who are in it just for the cake. All types are welcome and all types are needed. To suggest that PY sailors should be happy to “make do” because they aren’t competitive is so out of touch. And I say this as a class captain for my fleet.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by A2Z

[....
How condescending is that?! Of course there are many people like that, but there are many who take it seriously. Equally there are plenty in our Laser fleet who are in it just for the cake. All types are welcome and all types are needed. To suggest that PY sailors should be happy to “make do” because they aren’t competitive is so out of touch. And I say this as a class captain for my fleet.

Anybody spending ££££ on a nice boat and 'taking it seriously' in PY ought to take a short lesson in how PY is intended to work by the RYA and how it actually works in reality at your average sailing club. If you want to say your a better sailor than Fred in his Supernova, get a Supernova and give hime a proper race or STFU. Reality is, most of us have been around enough to know we're just club sailors and whether we're better than Fred is of no consequence. When we really want ot see how good we are, we get a Laser or a Merlin or (pick a fleet wth a depth of talent in...) and lose the excuses. Fact is, we're amateurs doing this for fun and you don't have to be 'winning' to get a lot out of it. Do you get a Traffic Warden's hat with 'Class Captain' on it?
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 9:12pm
Me too David, taking the bait (I’ve got deja vu again)

As many know, I sail a 100, so most of my racing is club handicaps/pursuits too, although there is regularly another (well well sailed one) 100 too. And guess what; I’m heavier than my oppo when it’s windy i tend to come out on top and vice versa.

On summer Wednesday nights, we 100s tend to do well on PY, ‘cos the wind drops, snookering the slower PY boats. Other days, it depends. Wind rises, wind drops, wind strength, course set, traffic and much more.

But no handicap system can ever, ever factor in all the complexities and multiple variables. It’s spreadsheet racing, results not to be taken seriously. Which is why I travel to class events too, for class racing.

Our perpetually PY unhappy sometime troll can never be content with menagerie racing results in a single hander (unless we have personal handicaps too like golf) because he’s simply not big enough. Fact of life. Put him at the back of a single two-handed trap boat, under-powered or with a monster on the wire and we might see if he’s as good as he thinks/was on a sailboard. Life’s not fair; we all need to suck that up.

Does anyone apart from iGRF really believe the PY system is rigged in any way? It’s a statistical analysis based on historical actual results and I’d suggest the modelling is infinitely more accurate than Imperial College can manage when its actually important.

But the PY system recognises it cannot be perfect which is why they recommend local adaption, which  HISC for one does reasonably successfully to factor tidal factors.

Meantime, every rating system ever tried has engendered frankensteinian nonsenses and ultimately murdered everything they touch.

That’s it from me. But if there’s a rich, fit 6ft4” supercrew wants to buy me a 505 to helm for them, let me know
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 9:23pm
I’ve only ever lost to Dylan Fletcher on handicap. Nice to know he doesn’t have bragging rights on me! I don’t doubt class racing offers something that PY doesn’t, but your attitude of dismissing PY racing as unworthy and implying the foolishness of anyone who buys a nice boat if they’re not going to class race it is appalling. You should be ashamed.
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