New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: 50S
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic Closed50S

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 34567 11>
Author
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499
Direct Link To This Post Topic: 50S
    Posted: 13 Mar 22 at 11:08pm
At the time of launching the Alto, as is the case pretty much today, the only act in town is to race according to the Portsmouth Handicap, so if you want to rig the demise of a particular craft, like the Alto, or the Icon, you simply rig it with an un attainable handicap.
The PYAG killed the Alto, absolutely and unequivocably. As they later went on to rig the demise of the Icon.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, that committee, group, whatever, they are one of two things, both of them un productive.

Edited by iGRF - 13 Mar 22 at 11:13pm
Back to Top
eric_c View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 21 Jan 18
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 22 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by iGRF

At the time of launching the Alto, as is the case pretty much today, the only act in town is to race according to the Portsmouth Handicap, so if you want to rig the demise of a particular craft, like the Alto, or the Icon, you simply rig it with an un attainable handicap.
The PYAG killed the Alto, absolutely and unequivocably. As they later went on to rig the demise of the Icon.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, that committee, group, whatever, they are one of two things, both of them un productive.


The thing with PY racing, like most handicap racing, is that it works OK with 'similar' boats.
Una rig singlehander against una rig singlehander. Asy trap boat against asy trap boat.Slow boat against slow boat. When you try using any simple yardstick for asy against sym kite (or any other missmatch of categories), you can almost always predict the result if you know the wind and course.

The Alto was doomed as a PY boat, because it did not fit into a suitable category. IIRC one blitzed everything at Camel Week one year when conditions suited, but every other outing ended in whining about PY?

 
Back to Top
Grumpycat View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 29 Sep 20
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 497
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 12:10am
Originally posted by iGRF

At the time of launching the Alto, as is the case pretty much today, the only act in town is to race according to the Portsmouth Handicap, so if you want to rig the demise of a particular craft, like the Alto, or the Icon, you simply rig it with an un attainable handicap.
The PYAG killed the Alto, absolutely and unequivocably. As they later went on to rig the demise of the Icon.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, that committee, group, whatever, they are one of two things, both of them un productive.

Utter tosh as always. 
The Icon had a hard py because it’s creator was the only person posting most of the race results to the py committee. And he is a very above average sailor . 
If you or I had been sailing it and produced the data , it would have had a very easy/soft handicap. 
But it still wouldn’t have been a success , because the marketing was s@@t . 
And that thats the bottom line , that you know more than most as you work in the trade. It doesn’t matter how good a boat is , if the marketing is c@@p , the boat is dead in the water . 

You cancelled your D-zero order on the day you were due to pick it up because ONE club gave it a py of 1010 . The official py is now 1029 and was from the start. (  the Great Lakes figure is around @1040 ) Given more sailors like me entering the class the official py will end up about 1040. Which was the figure Dan reckoned it would be at the start of the class. 
The fact the D-zero hasn’t been a bigger success has nothing to do with the PY and everything to do with marketing. Just look how many Aeros have been sold in the same time and they have the same PY problems. The PY system is not perfect but compared to everything you have ever suggested to replace it , IT IS  Wink



Edited by Grumpycat - 14 Mar 22 at 12:31am
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 12:13am
Originally posted by eric_c

 

The Alto was doomed as a PY boat, because it did not fit into a suitable category. IIRC one blitzed everything at Camel Week one year when conditions suited, but every other outing ended in whining about PY?


This doesn’t make sense for several reasons:
1. The second sentence contradicts the first.
2.  How is the Alto not in the same “category” as, say, the 29er, 4000, Iso or 800?  
3. Most handicap racing is series racing, not the high profile one-off events. So whilst it is true that in a one-off race some boats are better suited to handicap racing, over a series (or series of series) being a Jack of all trades is no disadvantage compared to a being a strong wind specialist like a 420.

I am sure there are many reasons for the Alto’s ultimate failure to grow, but an inherent inability to perform on PY is not one of them. 
Back to Top
eric_c View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 21 Jan 18
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 10:06am
Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by eric_c

 

The Alto was doomed as a PY boat, because it did not fit into a suitable category. IIRC one blitzed everything at Camel Week one year when conditions suited, but every other outing ended in whining about PY?


This doesn’t make sense for several reasons:
1. The second sentence contradicts the first.
2.  How is the Alto not in the same “category” as, say, the 29er, 4000, Iso or 800?  
3. Most handicap racing is series racing, not the high profile one-off events. So whilst it is true that in a one-off race some boats are better suited to handicap racing, over a series (or series of series) being a Jack of all trades is no disadvantage compared to a being a strong wind specialist like a 420.

I am sure there are many reasons for the Alto’s ultimate failure to grow, but an inherent inability to perform on PY is not one of them. 
The RS800 is a fast asy boat Py800?. The Iso is a medium asy boat with a PY 922.
They won't even be on the same leg of the course halfway through the race. If there's any tide, that's not serious racing.
The Alto was a long hull that should be fast in light airs, with pivoting sprit for dead runs. Should be a light air bandit if it's done well. The 926 PY being whined about seems very generous compared to any of the boats you list, if you bear in mind it's a newer design from a quality builder which should have benefitted from looking back on all the 90s asy boat experience.

PY can only ever work well for boats which have similat characteristics. If you want to use it for kite boats against Lasers or Mirrors vs 505s, it will deliver a bit of fun on the water and results nobody should care about. Which is fine for a lot of people of course.
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 10:19am
Well if what y'all think is true, then why is the opposite the case? Classes with benevolent handicaps, the Laser rigged to swell the Great Lakes ranks to the point that one absurdly won one year, the Phantom in it's early lipstick days until they spotted success and immediately stomped on it, the Blaze a little more subtley but still a Bandit in certain conditions and hands, the Wayfarer, do I have to continue?

The market for new boats bless them, love a percieved advantage, take that away and you can be the marketing genius of all time you still won't succeed with a new boat. Even now, the Aero 7? 1065? really, no RS fanboys on that oh so not transparent PYAG? It's bent, as long as there is human decision making it will ever be so.

The D Zero was so f**ked by them, can't have those dirty Europeans succeeding in our market, (and it wasn't the handicap in my case, it was that little sticky up thing on the bottom and bad handling at the waters edge at the demo, nothing to grab hold of)The D Zero on inland water is twice the boat an Aero is, the Rig, three times better, but they stomped on it, there is no actual consideration for wether the boat is actually not a bad thing to have, no, it might hurt my class so it has to go, and that is the pathetic mindset that is oh so prevalent and why that damned committee should be disbanded and replaced with a computer.

Finally as I'm in full rant, the other thing you, we, lack? A decent f**king magazine that calls it for us, tests boats, tells it as it is, not that one could ever exists since at some time or other all the advertisers would be peeved.

Edited by iGRF - 14 Mar 22 at 11:14am
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 10:39am
Originally posted by eric_c


The Alto was a long hull that should be fast in light airs, with pivoting sprit for dead runs. Should be a light air bandit if it's done well. The 926 PY being whined about seems very generous compared


Except it didn't get a number for a few years and then appeared I think in 2014 at 912 as an EN, and the following year 2015 it finally made the list also at 912 exactly the same number as the 505.

The boat was launched in 2008 so what's that 7 years later? I'd probably sold it by then and moved on, people die waiting for things to move in this sport.
Back to Top
davidyacht View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Mar 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1345
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by iGRF



Finally as I'm in full rant, the other thing you, we, lack? A decent f**king magazine that calls it for us, tests boats, tells it as it is, not that one could ever exists since at some time or other all the advertisers would be peeved.

Magazines so last century ... 
Happily living in the past
Back to Top
eric_c View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 21 Jan 18
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 4:05pm
PY is what it is.
Boat designers should well understand its limitations.

You really need to look at why people buy new boats in a new class.
How many are paying £10k or whatever to get serious about their PY results?
Anybody who's doing that needs to go and take up golf.

The proper way to start a new class is for a club to get 6 or more sailors to put their money up and task a designer with designing the boat. Unfortunately, that went out of fashion in about 1938.

The Icon was another underwhelming boat IMHO. A lot of sail area, a lot of hype, when seen on the water, I didn't really see 20 years of progress from the Tasar. Apart from a nicer mast. Where was the demand for a 2 person, 2 sail boat? What was it supposed to race against? I'm sure it would have been fine for team racing or fleet racing, in certain helm/crew weight/ wind strength constrainsts, but who asked for it?

Does the rest of the world race under PY? Which countries which don't have PY produce lots of vibrant new classes?
Back to Top
Dougaldog View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 05 Nov 10
Location: hamble
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 356
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 22 at 4:16pm
Yay, Davidyacht had it right! It isn't just that magazine's are 'so last century' but when one looks at what we can do now on Y&Y.com, where  we can add video, interviews and so much more, it just make sense to do it like this now. As a wordscribe who used to write for the magazines (plural), I'd get to 1,000 words and the editor was already saying "you can stop now".... grovel a bit and I might get 1,200 words but at the expense of pictures.  My 'Fear of Flying' or 'The Greed for Speed'  on this site ran to 4,000 words plus 20 pictures - so you get more of the story, the detail and the background.

But - it matters not if it was on line or in chopped up trees (let's face it, where the man from Kent hails from, marking a clay tablet with a papyrus reed is the hot technology) I see no point in putting together any form of test. I've always told it as I see it and have various boot prints on the anatomy to prove this, but even if I gave a well considered, thoughtful review of a boat - such as the Alto, it would be mocked for no other reason that an intelligent, value driven piece of writing doesn't chime in with an individual's (any individual) belief system.
Actually, the Alto is a good example. I've sailed it, been Race Officer for it and saw it evolve from the basic concept of a 'modern' 5o5 and thought all along that it was a clever idea.  It had a quality builder and if you ignore the PY rants then it had a pretty good start to life. So why isn't the Alto  now part of our mainstream dinghy scene? For a start there isn't anything of a causal link between the PY and the commercial success and the rabid rants, whilst interesting, have next to nothing in the way of context. Nor do  statements that are thrown out there  mean anything - after all, WTF does  "the Alto reached 90% of the efficiency of the 5o5" actually mean? It is a pointless soundbite - how do you measure what is quoted as a hard number...90% efficient...  unless you set out the criteria of how this is measured and calculated and then, just possibly, people might sit up and pay attention.
Sadly, the seeds of the downfall of the Alto are so easily sown! I was recently asked to comment on another possible project, but it was only when I started asking the questions that the backers of the Alto should have been asking, before they first took a saw to the donor FiveO hull, only to get that same lack of any meaningful response, that I realised that this too would go the same way.
As Jim C can tell you from his historical records, new classes came and went well before the PYAG and some of them were good boats. Why did they not make it, when others did...now if IGRF could answer that, then we'd forgive you everything else.....
Dougal
Dougal H
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 34567 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy