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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Different way of seeing
    Posted: 07 Mar 22 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Isn't the problem with the marketing, not the boat? No reason for there to be high speed, very hard to sail boats out there, but then don't advertise them as being suitable for your average club racer.
I remember when the Iso came out, lots of people traded in Ents, Fireflies and the like. In theory, they less stable than an Iso, but in reality, many Isos ended up in the long grass because of the power they generated causing many scary wipeouts, and people either went back to older designs or left the sport. And I remember people being a bit sniffy because I sailed old designs rather than a "skiff", as though that made me a lesser sailor.
But I'll defend the right of anybody to sail any boat they want to, whether they master it or simply enjoy the craic as they crash and burn yet again.

I suspect the main reason ISOs (and Laser 5000s and possibly 4000s) ended up in the long grass was that they were unsuited to the bits of water people actually sailed on, as well as failing to deliver the skiff performance due to their disappointing weight/power ratio ... on top of that, even the most well designed trapeze assymetric boats are no fun in light winds ... which are the conditions most often encountered in heartlands of UK dinghy sailing.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 22 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Riv

Steve Clark posted this in the SA thread about the Portstar (page 2). It's a different way of looking at things

"Live ballast, shifting the crew weight, requires varying degrees of athleticism. And the further you have to shift it, the more athletic it is, and if the boat is highly dependent or responsive to moving the weight around, it is more athletic still. Much of the performance advances in sailboat design are not design advances at all, but simply relying more on the sailor's willingness to move around. In this way "performance" refers to the sailor, not to the boat"

Works for me, other ideas?

You only have to look at National 12s, Merlin Rockets, I14s and International Moths to bear this out; in these classes twitchy means narrower on the waterline, finer in the ends, which generally results in a faster boat in the more skilled hands ... but you do have to finish to win it!
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Riv View Drop Down
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Posts: 353 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 22 at 3:33pm
iGRF said
"A bad design should not be permitted to shelter under the adjective 'performance
This is a useful counterpoint.
Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 22 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

......

You only have to look at National 12s, Merlin Rockets, I14s and International Moths to bear this out; in these classes twitchy means narrower on the waterline, finer in the ends, which generally results in a faster boat in the more skilled hands ... but you do have to finish to win it!

You only have to look at some modern Merlins sailing on the sea in a decent breeze to see that they are way better at staying in control and making good progress than most 60s designs.

The idea that old slow designs are easier to sail in all conditions is basically wrong. The only 'old' design I'd hold in high regard for being able to get a very average sailor safely around in 'far more wind and chop than we were expecting' is a 505. That may be a tidal estuary thing, they are quite special in short wind over tide chop, riding on the flared bits of hull. 14s, I think most people would say the 'modern' crop are more seaworthy than the roundy-hull era? Moths took the narrow waterline to silly extremes pre-foiling and are too short. N12s are too short. The object lesson in slow 'stable' boats which are shockingly squirrelly at speed is probably the Bosun. A merlin feels like a safe warm place after a blast in one of those things.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 22 at 7:42pm
Whilst I don't disagree with the premise that the Topper and Laser asymmetric boats were not very good, I think any hypotheses you come up with need to include the fact that Fireballs and 505s, once among the most popular classes in the country numerically, have similarly disappeared into the long grass and really nothing has replaced them. You can add the Laser 2 to the list too - once a very significant class worldwide and now more or less extinct with nothing apparently replacing it.
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tink View Drop Down
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 22 at 8:51pm
I always sort the PY by returns. The fireball is the first boat with a Trapeze early teens a few years ago more recently late teens. Obviously only represents club racing 
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 22 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by JimC

Whilst I don't disagree with the premise that the Topper and Laser asymmetric boats were not very good, I think any hypotheses you come up with need to include the fact that Fireballs and 505s, once among the most popular classes in the country numerically, have similarly disappeared into the long grass and really nothing has replaced them. You can add the Laser 2 to the list too - once a very significant class worldwide and now more or less extinct with nothing apparently replacing it.

I don't think that's got much to do with them being easy or hard to sail
More to do with the performance you get for your money.
Both classes have focussed on international competition, and in 505's that doesn't come cheap.
Fireballs lost a generation of sailors to asy classes, which deliver the same speed in less wind.
When you look at club PY fleets and clubs' tendencies to race or not in light/heavy conditions, I don't  see a lot of opportunities where a mid-price Fireball or 505 would be the right answer.

Then there's the issue of the PY being driven down by the sailmakers who race shiny high tech new ones.

Basically it's not the 70s or 80s any more and the days of an open meeting most weekends ithe 'season' have gone for most classes.

As for the Laser 2, you might as well ask why we don't drive Austin Montegos any more. Worldwide numbers were never that impressive anyway, give that a lot were not owned by actual individual sailors. You can buy one for buttons now, but why would you? As a boat they were pretty crap, but they gave affordable level OD racing for their 20 minutes of fame.
The people L2's were targetted at might be sailing RS200s, RS500s, 29ers, other stuff outside Englandshire? How do worldwide 420 sales compare with the L2?
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 22 at 9:28pm
56,000 420's. 10,500 Laser 2.
Robert
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 22 at 12:18am
I have no idea about the wider sailing world . But certainly at my club all types of crewed boats are on the decline. We are down to two enterprises and a n12. 
The move to singlehanders at smaller clubs seems unstoppable.

Is this trend the same at other clubs ? 




Edited by Grumpycat - 08 Mar 22 at 7:36am
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The Q View Drop Down
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Posts: 126 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 22 at 8:18am
My main club went down to almost no dinghies about 20 years ago , having had a big enterprise Fleet and a variety of other two man boats.

Then they started a sailing school, up to 80 kids on a Thursday afternoon / evening learning to sail.. All volunteer run, so very cheap to learn to sail..
But..
They learn in club Oppies .. single handed,

Move on to club toppers ..  single handed,

Buy their own Splash  or Laser single handed.

Very few have gone to two person boats. 

In the old days you learnt by crewing , then getting the offer to sail back to the club at the end of sailing, then sharing the helm then eventually you moved on to your own two man boat.

What's keeping the Keelboat fleet alive is adults coming back into sailing or coming to learn in the club Yeomans.


Edited by The Q - 08 Mar 22 at 8:25am
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