Different way of seeing

   Steve Clark posted this in the SA thread about the Portstar (page 2). It's a different way of looking at things

"Live ballast, shifting the crew weight, requires varying degrees of athleticism.  And the further you have to shift it, the more athletic it is, and if the boat is highly dependent or responsive to moving the weight around, it is more athletic still.  Much of the performance advances in sailboat design are not design advances at all, but simply relying more on the sailor's willingness to move around.  In this way "performance" refers to the sailor, not to the boat"

Works for me, other ideas?

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Riv Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 23 Nov 13 Location: South Devon Online Status: Offline Posts: 353	Post Options Post Reply Quote Riv Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Different way of seeing Posted: 05 Mar 22 at 7:09pm
	Steve Clark posted this in the SA thread about the Portstar (page 2). It's a different way of looking at things "Live ballast, shifting the crew weight, requires varying degrees of athleticism. And the further you have to shift it, the more athletic it is, and if the boat is highly dependent or responsive to moving the weight around, it is more athletic still. Much of the performance advances in sailboat design are not design advances at all, but simply relying more on the sailor's willingness to move around. In this way "performance" refers to the sailor, not to the boat" Works for me, other ideas?
	Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.

423zero Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jan 15 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3420	Post Options Post Reply Quote 423zero Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Mar 22 at 7:28pm
	Tippy boats require a lot of concentration and ability to move fast, mainly to avoid a capsize, might not be considered a fast boat. Enterprise very tippy, not fast. Comet, very tippy, gives you a good workout, not going to pass many boats. Firefly, very athletic boat. Laser, Dzero, Aero all similar width, so probably similar energy to move from one side to the other.
	Robert

Sam.Spoons Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3400	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sam.Spoons Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Mar 22 at 11:14pm
	I wouldn't describe an Ent as tippy, I haven't sailed any of the others but I think of 'tippy' as describing the basic form stability of a boat. The Blaze is pretty stable (i.e. not tippy) but has a fairly big rig so is definitely more difficult in gusty conditions than an Ent. Get them on the sea in a solid F5+ though and the Blaze is probably easier to sail than an Ent.
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sargesail Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459	Post Options Post Reply Quote sargesail Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Mar 22 at 7:45am
	He’s dead right and it’s good for the sport. Makes it more of a sport. There are still less ‘developed’ boats for those that want to sail an armchair….which ironically is what the pornstar looks like.

eric_c Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 21 Jan 18 Online Status: Offline Posts: 382	Post Options Post Reply Quote eric_c Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Mar 22 at 12:05pm
	There's 'static tippy' and there's high speed instability. A modern hull like the Por*star could require a lot less athleticism than a Laser to keep it the right way up in difficult conditions. A modern rig with better gust response requires much less action from the helm or crew. Within limits, being more athletic is always going to help. It makes an interesting change to do some racing in less athletic boats, like a Squib or an Etchells or perhaps a 40ft BenJenBav. The racing can be great. When you want ot design a new class of dinghy, there is IMHO, a trap in looking for maximum performance, it's not the same as giving the best racing. We want boats which are quick and fun and responsive, but we also want tight competitive racing. You don't want a boat finely tuned to the helm's weight or size, if you want broad appeal to lots of quality sailors. There's a big difference between 'athleticism' and 'expending a lot of calories'. Big difference between working hard to get the best out of a Laser in real waves on the sea, compared to pumping one around a reservoir.

iGRF Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499	Post Options Post Reply Quote iGRF Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Mar 22 at 2:55pm
	For me, the clue comes if you can't leave the boat to put the trailer away without it falling over, gives an indication and how tricky it's going to be to sail. I totally disagree with that bollox, it goes back to the old marketing BS we used to use when windsurfing started to become next to impossible, 'oh if you're not good enough to use it, then that's your problem you need to practise more like a pro rider' So, like all the RS700s that lay around unused at Hayling, loads of so called 'performance boards' used to adorn car roofs with the intention of kidding folk that the owners were somehow 'good enough' when frankly they, nor anyone else for that matter was ever likely to be and the sport began to die. IMV dinghysailing was like that at the performance end when I started to get involved, that ridiculously over canvassed 49er, MPS's RS700s, The EPS in it's stock form, the RS200 a farce of a boat, the RS600 sorry boys I know you tried but it really isn't necessary, there are better ways to get kicks, Kitesurfing, Winging, Windsurfing, same with the RS300. If you can't take a boat out in ALL conditions, really what's the point of it, other than trying to look patheticool on a puddle. Thank heaven for a bit of common sense, the D Zero, the Aero, the H2, The Phantom, Solution, Supersofa and the resurgence of the sensible (Solo,OK,) just in time, if not already to late, but better late than never and if as I suspect the Pornstar tends to be easy to get along with all the better. A bad design should not be permitted to shelter under the adjective 'performance'. If a helm with a 9 to 5 job and the means to purchase the instrument of the particular class cannot use it within the time allotted to him through his lifestyle, then that class has no long term future. And you can quote me. Edited by iGRF - 06 Mar 22 at 3:20pm
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Do Different Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 26 Jan 12 Location: North Online Status: Offline Posts: 1312	Post Options Post Reply Quote Do Different Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Mar 22 at 4:34pm
	With your sensible hat on iGRF you're not altogether wrong.

tink Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 23 Jan 16 Location: North Hants Online Status: Offline Posts: 789	Post Options Post Reply Quote tink Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Mar 22 at 4:42pm
	If I understood iGRF correctly I’m going to agree with him. The three dinghies I’ve competitively sailed for a long period of time have been IC, Streaker and Radial. The IC is a lot of fun but once family commitments increased I was not getting enough time on the boat to not make silly mistakes and end up a leg behind (club racing). The Streaker and the Radial give me more boat on boat and the Radial has the edge because I can’t blame the boat. It’s a slightly strange quote from Steve Clarke as has spent a lot of time in an IC which is a boat with a high performance to fitness ratio, OD rather than DC mind, with people well above 60 and even into their 70s being competitive. Once mastered it is a better old man’s boat than a solo, low in the air dagger board, easy to get back onboard and no flooding, I appreciate it is an outlier.
	Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com

eric_c Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 21 Jan 18 Online Status: Offline Posts: 382	Post Options Post Reply Quote eric_c Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Mar 22 at 5:57pm
	Steve Clark doesn't get why the Sunfish isn't popular in the UK. I think that's all you need to know about his insight into UK sailing. Inland, its low rig would be perpetually in the wind shadow of dogs walking on the bank. On the coast, it would be wet cold and miserable. Except on those odd Summer days when it would be too slow to stem the tide. Unlike the laser, it was never in the right place at the right time to saturate the market here. Had it done so then maybe the pull of OD racing might have done it some favours. But the PY system would have pushed it to the fringes. Maybe it's like the Porkstar, the route to success would be to present the market with a fleet of boats as a fait accompli? People race worse things than Sunfish, but mostly because it's the local fleet for their peers.

tink Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 23 Jan 16 Location: North Hants Online Status: Offline Posts: 789	Post Options Post Reply Quote tink Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Mar 22 at 6:05pm
	I can’t think of any other sport where fitness/age, weight, flexibility, disability, experience, commitment, talent and budget lead to different equipment choices yet we still all end in the same race
	Tink https://tinkboats.com http://proasail.blogspot.com