Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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List classes of boat for sale |
VMG display, app ? |
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eric_c ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 21 Jan 18 Online Status: Offline Posts: 382 |
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This iis from Garmin, illustrating that VMG can be either wind or waypoint related: Understanding How Wind VMG and WaypointVMG Appear in the Data BarsThe chartplotter automatically switches between displaying Wind Velocity Made Good (VMG) and Waypoint VMG in the data bars. • • • • • Waypoint VMG appears under these conditions: The Route Leg data bar displays Waypoint VMG when you are navigating a route or an automatic guidance line. The Sailing data bar displays Waypoint VMG when you are navigating a route or an automatic guidance line, and you turn off the Route Leg data bar. Wind VMG appears under these conditions: The Sailing data bar displays Wind VMG when you are not navigating a route or an automatic guidance line. The Sailing data bar displays Wind VMG when the Route Leg data bar is on. Wind VMG really needs to be caclulated using wind instruments and a log to measure the boatspeed through the water, to keep everything in a water/true wind frame of reference rather than a GPS/Ground Wind frame. Unfortunately this means it's full of errors and delays, very hard to measure/calculate to any useful accuracy without a lot of averaging. I've sailed on a few yachts with VMG displays, mostly they tell you how hard it is to get the instrument calibration good enough. |
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Mozzy ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 21 Apr 20 Online Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
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Well, it won't come as a shock, but I don't think Garmin's definition is very helpful and are probably born more out selling instruments to both motor boat and sailing boats, or yachts which frequently motor.
However, anyone I have ever talked who races has used wind direction to define VMG. And unless you plan on doing some long distance route with a motor on your dinghy then it's fair assumption to discuss VMG in reference to the OP under the most common use of the term. Anyway, back to the topic in hand. As this is dinghy forum, many of us will be sailing on lakes where current isn't an issue. Here GPS is actually better than traditional instruments for calculation of VMG as it includes leeway. The other thing about dinghies is we tend to sail our boats flatter and on flatter water, so a lot of the issues with calibration from heave, roll etc. are minimised. Additionally, unlike yacht, use of many electronic is illegal during racing, so often dinghy sailor would be more concerned about a system which works during training; which opens up more elaborate mounting options to get around the some of the other calibration issues. Once in the tide, however, it does get very messy, and that's why I've not spent out on the equipment. One of the driving factors, beyond daylight and winter storms for INEOS going to Cagliari was tide in the solent messing up their instrument readings. But, I don't think we're that far away. Reliable apparent wind data I think in many ways is easier on a dinghy now that instruments are miniaturised and is really just a problem with selecting the appropriate smoothing. Heading has been sorted for a very long time already. So it's just mostly about getting an accurate speed through water and leeway. I would probably spend £1-2k if I could get real time VMG and post session analysis for my dinghy in a tidal venue. I am already very tempted on getting what is presently available and going to other venues to avoid the current. Back to the apps: Gamin connect has a dinghy racer app for the smart watches (I have it on my fenix 5+) that gives VMG but it relies on a single TWD number , however, it uses an assumed tacking angle of 90 degrees. Which cause a couple of issues, firstly, I am not sure if the watch can tell the difference between pinching up 5 degrees and a 5 degree lift. If both happened without a change in speed the former should increase VMG and later leave it unchanged. Then there is the issue that not all boats tack through 90 degrees anyway. Then the issue of tide. So the VMG is useless for me. Edited by Mozzy - 18 Aug 21 at 8:08am |
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eric_c ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 21 Jan 18 Online Status: Offline Posts: 382 |
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It really depends what the pupose of measuring/calculating it is. If you want to use to get a rough idea of how long a windward leg will take, then accuracy of a few % is fine and you can do useful things like predict the tide when you arrive at the windward mark. If you want to use it for handicapping, then accuracy of maybe 1% would be useful? If you want to use it for tuning or training, then very small differences matter (except at total novice level or 'apparent wind asy sailing lesson one' perhaps?). To take two extremes, my club Laser sailing is greatly influenced by my arch-B***-rival being able to pull away a couple of boat lengths in a drag race to the corner of the bay. Thats maybe 1% and to chip away at that, I'd need an indication down to 0.1%. Ifyou think about foiling AC boats, the apparent wind is so close to the boat speed vector that small errors will have a big influence on where the 'true' wind is calculated to be. To get near to the sensitivity of two boat tuning is a very big ask, even in perfect wind and flat water. Real wind and the sea make it more difficult, many variables and constant change.
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JeffStineSailing ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 21 Online Status: Offline Posts: 14 |
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Hello Peter,
A fair number of GPS systems do require a waypoint or mark to navigate to before they provide a number for "VMG". What they are actually providing is velocity toward the mark, not upwind or downwind VMG and not velocity along the rhumb line. With these systems, if you enter the location of a mark that's upwind of you and begin navigating to it, they show the component of your course and speed that's taking you toward the mark. The result is that they display a "VMG" value that decreases to 0 as you approach the layline. That's really misleading and it's been misunderstood by a lot of folks I sail with. If you want upwind / downwind VMG you'll either need a system with wind sensor, or a smart app that determines true wind direction as you tack. Since I wanted that and a lot more and couldn't find it in a handheld device or a GPS watch, I developed an app that provides me what I want while I'm racing. It provides upwind / downwind VMG from a good estimate of true wind direction along with VMC (velocity along the rhumb line), tacking angles, angle to the mark, start timing, etc. It runs on fairly inexpensive Garmin watches (~$200 and up). You can check out the Sail2WIN app on my web site, or at the Garmin App Store. Here's a screen shot: |
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JeffStineSailing ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 21 Online Status: Offline Posts: 14 |
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The single TWD number is obviously a problem as is assuming a tacking angle of 90 degrees. I developed an app for Garmin watches that handles both of those issues. As for pinching up 5 degrees vs a 5 degree lift, GPS systems without wind instruments won't be able to tell the difference. That said, GPS based VMG can be quite useful if it detects your tacking angles and updates it's understanding of TWD as you go. You can check out the Sail2WIN app on my web site or at the Garmin App Store.
Edited by JeffStineSailing - 16 Dec 21 at 7:08pm |
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getafix ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Mar 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2143 |
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how relevant is this in the vast majority of club or open races?
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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one
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Do Different ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Jan 12 Location: North Online Status: Offline Posts: 1312 |
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Probably not very, given most dinghy classes don't allow any electronic aids beyond a watch and compass.
This is the dinghy development page after all.
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JeffStineSailing ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 21 Online Status: Offline Posts: 14 |
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I use it in all of our club races.
If the use of a GPS is not banned in your class rules it useful in the following ways:
The start timer is useful whether you're sailing a pursuit format race or a normal 5,4,1 start. The practice timer, separate from the starting timer, lets you take timed practice runs at the line to get yourself dialed in before the real start. If you want to maximize upwind / downwind VMG it's useful. If you're sailing in current you'll see your actual tacking angles which helps with layline calls. If you have mark locations and a list of possible courses before the race, the navigation helps you nail laylines even in current, helps you maximize VMC (velocity along the rhumb line), and tells you where the next mark is right after you do a rounding. If you need to know how long till the next rounding in order to get setup for the next rounding, knowing time to the mark is a real help. There's plenty there that helps you get around a race course more efficiently. Edited by JeffStineSailing - 16 Dec 21 at 5:29pm |
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JeffStineSailing ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 06 Dec 21 Online Status: Offline Posts: 14 |
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As for relevance to the discussion, I believe this is the post that caught my eye and prompted my response.
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Old Timer ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 05 Jun 13 Online Status: Offline Posts: 370 |
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Your response was most relevant and useful. Do you have an iPhone app?
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