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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Mar 21 at 7:16pm
Jim C - this is a story that I have well documented.

Bob Miller had a design for a single hander, a hard chine brute of a boat that  in his own words was described as "it sucks". But - he was caught out by timescales, as to get a boat to the second set of Trials, he had to get something made - and quick. He was sailing FDs at the time and simply 'borrowed the shape'. Keith Paul, who sailed both Contenders and FDs, had one of each with his famous red hull with a white boot topping - he also had a very long garden.
If you put the FD at the bottom of the lawn and the Contender 1/3 of the way towards the house, the perspective made them look the same size - and well nigh impossible to tell apart.

As for the similarity with the Laser - I've even got this in a photo! When the IYRU chose the Contender, they created a 'launch committee' to get the boat out there on a proper footing. The list of those who were on the committee is interesting - Jack Knights.... Al Santos and... Bruce Kirby - so he was personally involved with the class from the outset.

Dougal
Dougal H
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 399 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 9:14am
Ben was an unabashed fan of the FD.  The video of the hard chine prototype I've seen, and the first hand accounts I got of it, indicate that it had issues but showed strong points.  I only met Ben a couple of times and only actually interviewed him once on record, but he loved to exaggerate the issues some of his boats had; that was Ben's way.  He was a mercurial guy who loved overstatement, and also loved the FD and its renjolle ancestors.


Bruce never hid his association with the Contender association.  He also said, in writing to me, that he was not aware of the details of the Contender design when he drew the Laser.  After a career spent doing investigations on the legal side, including inquiries at national level, I'd be very hesitant to dispute Bruce's words.


Both boats were drawn with low freeboard as a consideration.  Both were drawn around the same time.  They may be similar, just as many other boats are similar to each other to a significant degree. That does not mean that anyone copied anything.


I never asked Ben about the Contender's design although I have spoken to Carl Ryves and Craig Whitworth and read the contemporary reports. I have spoken or corresponded with Ian Bruce, Bruce Kirby and Hans Fogh about the Laser design, and none of them said it was a Contender copy or anything similar.  Bruce's explanation about the design, like Ben's writings about the Contender and its heritage, provide perfectly reasonable explanations about why they could have ended up with generally similar hull shapes, as Jim notes. 


As a matter of natural justice, anyone claiming that a design is copied or directly influenced should put that claim to the person involved and allow them to give details.


Similar designs of the era, like the Banshee, are not a million miles from the Laser/Contender.  Nor are later designs such as the Spiral, Byte, Monarch, Micron, Laser II, etc.  If you design a good boat with that sort of criteria the Contender/Laser shape is pretty much what you end up with for hydrodynamic and technical reasons.


Edited by CT249 - 06 Mar 21 at 9:18am
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 9:44am
From my perspective, I interviewed both Carl and Craig - and there was no doubt that Bob was somewhat 'under the cosh' of timescales and needed something in a hurry and with an FD in the yard, all the inspiration he needed was right there in front of him Neither spoke of this in negative terms - be it a 'strong influence' or a case of 'borrowing the lines' these are mere semantics but then, looking at one boat when you are designing another is a trait as old as boat design itself. I was also lucky when the great man himself - Bruce that is - joined a friend and I for lunch a while back and the topics of the Laser, launching the Contender and others were some that were kicked around as we enjoyed the view out over the harbour.. Who knows just what constitutes an influence, be that overt of unconscious.... these things are so often the sum of all our thoughts. It is hard harder to detect a whole new line of thought - Westell with the 5o5, Bethwaite...maybe George Cockshott with the BRA-1, Holt... with the Cadet....One of my outstanding tasks is to complete my dinghy design version of the old BBC series 'Rock Family Trees' which charted how one band influenced another and how - my idea was to start with Cockshott, Morgan-Giles, then Fox....building outwards showing how influences developed both domestically and  with the arrival of new lines of thought from abroad....but just doing this with a focus on the UK domestic scene is one of the biggest projects that I have on the books right now!
D
Dougal H
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Chris_H View Drop Down
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Posts: 237 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris_H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 9:50am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

From my perspective, I interviewed both Carl and Craig - and there was no doubt that Bob was somewhat 'under the cosh' of timescales and needed something in a hurry and with an FD in the yard, all the inspiration he needed was right there in front of him Neither spoke of this in negative terms - be it a 'strong influence' or a case of 'borrowing the lines' these are mere semantics but then, looking at one boat when you are designing another is a trait as old as boat design itself. I was also lucky when the great man himself - Bruce that is - joined a friend and I for lunch a while back and the topics of the Laser, launching the Contender and others were some that were kicked around as we enjoyed the view out over the harbour.. Who knows just what constitutes an influence, be that overt of unconscious.... these things are so often the sum of all our thoughts. It is hard harder to detect a whole new line of thought - Westell with the 5o5, Bethwaite...maybe George Cockshott with the BRA-1, Holt... with the Cadet....One of my outstanding tasks is to complete my dinghy design version of the old BBC series 'Rock Family Trees' which charted how one band influenced another and how - my idea was to start with Cockshott, Morgan-Giles, then Fox....building outwards showing how influences developed both domestically and  with the arrival of new lines of thought from abroad....but just doing this with a focus on the UK domestic scene is one of the biggest projects that I have on the books right now!
D

Am loving these dinghy history reviews and anecdotes :-)  More please.

(nothing beats the 5o5 though ;-)   )
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 9:57am
Chris_H....not long to wait...check out the Y&Y.com page Thursday! I think you'll like it!

D
Dougal H
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Chris_H View Drop Down
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Posts: 237 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris_H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Dougaldog

Chris_H....not long to wait...check out the Y&Y.com page Thursday! I think you'll like it!
D


Another 5o5 instalment? Ace !!
I sailed 5o5’s in the 70s at Stokes Bay and had a few conversations with Alistair Black, the well know sailing photographer of the time. If I ever win the lottery, a full carbon fibre black 5o5 fully kitted out in a glass case in the boys toys room would be my dream (and 1 for actually sailing 😀)
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 6:00pm
Presumably the underwater sections of the Laser will have owed something to the Kirby I14s?   Even if the topsides were based on a sketch on a paper napkin
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 6:53pm
No boat (or anything else) is designed in a vacuum. The astute designer will always be looking around to see what ideas other people are coming up with and whether they are worthy of consideration. Ultimately that's part of how civilisation works. Sure you can get situations were a designer or class or even region manages to get the blinkers on and not realise better things are going on elsewhere, but its unusual because most designers are too smart to fall into that sort of trap. Sometimes, though, that old demon complacency gets involved.


Edited by JimC - 06 Mar 21 at 6:54pm
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 9:21pm
I struggle to think of any successful one design dinghy that does not share lineage from a development or restricted class or a designer that cut their teeth in I14s, Merlins, N12s, Moths, Cherubs, N14s or the Skiff classes ... Fox, Holt, Proctor, Jackson, Howlett, Morrison, Richards, Farr, Bethwaite, Miller, Everest 
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 21 at 10:12pm
Sometimes the inspiration comes from further afield, such as the American influence on Proctor when it came to the Minisail, but I agree everything is built on the foundations of others.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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