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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 Mar 21 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Maybe the Blaze is flatter and wider; more wetted area?

Yes, most probably, though a fair degree of incompetence slips in there too...

The Laser hull is a good shape, let down for me by the horrible ergonomics (for us short ar53s) and the not so stellar rig.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 21 at 7:50am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by Do Different

Maybe the Blaze is flatter and wider; more wetted area?

Yes, most probably, though a fair degree of incompetence slips in there too...

The Laser hull is a good shape, let down for me by the horrible ergonomics (for us short ar53s) and the not so stellar rig.

That and if you sail on restricted water the Laser is far more manoeuvrable than the Blaze. I found when I had mine that if the wind wasn't too shifty I would leave them far behind. if it got shifty they could tack on every shift whereas the Blaze was much slower to tack you often lost more than you would gain.

In a blow there was no contest, you just don't get the same sensation of speed being up on the rack though until you blow past something like it is going backwards.

I'll take the D-Zero over both though, the nimbleness of the Laser with the extra speed of the Blaze.
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 21 at 10:23am
Originally posted by jeffers

That and if you sail on restricted water the Laser is far more manoeuvrable than the Blaze. I found when I had mine that if the wind wasn't too shifty I would leave them far behind. if it got shifty they could tack on every shift whereas the Blaze was much slower to tack you often lost more than you would gain.

In a blow there was no contest, you just don't get the same sensation of speed being up on the rack though until you blow past something like it is going backwards.

I'll take the D-Zero over both though, the nimbleness of the Laser with the extra speed of the Blaze.

Yup, agreed on all points (except the sensation of speed when up on the rack). I also think the Blaze, unsurprisingly, scores in marginal planing conditions and reaching courses. TBF the Laser is no slouch in a blow if reasonably well sailed.

If I only sailed on the lake I'd probably have a D-Zero or Solution but on open water the Blaze is just so good...
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 399 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 21 at 12:39am
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


Originally posted by iGRF

It's got more to do with the Laser performance in waves imv, certainly at our club, being over 14 ft which is the magic cutoff for dealing with waves at our particular neck of the channel, that and by the lee sailing dead downwind in waves..

A Laser is less than 14', 13' 9" LOA and only 12' 6" LWL (which is what matters)?


Childhood memory says 13' 10 1/2" overall length, but where does the 12'6" number come from? Maybe without a person on board, as the stem isn't that raked.
Still nowhere near 14 feet. Maybe the inland handicap bias is because lots of people who can't roll tack sail them on lakes compared to people in Solos?

Bruce Kirby told me in writing that the Laser was designed to have a waterline of 12'6", which he felt to be the minimum for good performance.
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 399 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 21 at 12:43am
Originally posted by tink

Never seen a carbon top mast, lots of very old boats with 1970s kickers and ropes discarded as mooring lines off super tankers. The sails only last one decent blow,


Mark Bethwaite, a multi-millionaire who could afford to buy any number of sails, used the same sail to win three of his world Masters titles.  My brother made it inside the top 25 of the open worlds and only ever owned one sail.  World champs Brett Bayer, Michael Blackburn and Krystal Weir also get far more use out of their sails than "one decent blow".

If the world champions can use the same sail for repeated championships then those who blame their results on a sail that "only lasts one decent blow" are just looking for an excuse.

Sigh..... I'd better go away again, and stop replying to this sort of stuff.


Edited by CT249 - 03 Mar 21 at 3:40am
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 21 at 5:36am
Originally posted by CT249



Originally posted by tink

Never seen a carbon top mast, lots of very old boats with 1970s kickers and ropes discarded as mooring lines off super tankers. The sails only last one decent blow,

Mark Bethwaite, a multi-millionaire who could afford to buy any number of sails, used the same sail to win three of his world Masters titles.  My brother made it inside the top 25 of the open worlds and only ever owned one sail.  World champs Brett Bayer, Michael Blackburn and Krystal Weir also get far more use out of their sails than "one decent blow".
If the world champions can use the same sail for repeated championships then those who blame their results on a sail that "only lasts one decent blow" are just looking for an excuse.
Sigh..... I'd better go away again, and stop replying to this sort of stuff.



We've heard this before

There will always be exceptions and perhaps sailors who just use one sail for big events - hence claiming they last.

For most regatta sailors they will need to regularly change their race sails. The old style ones certainly don't last. mk 2 looks better (hence the change ?)

And why would we expect anything different for the old sails ?. Cheap (cheaply made but not priced !) cross cut sails ?
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tink View Drop Down
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 21 at 5:46am
Originally posted by CT249



Originally posted by tink

Never seen a carbon top mast, lots of very old boats with 1970s kickers and ropes discarded as mooring lines off super tankers. The sails only last one decent blow,

Mark Bethwaite, a multi-millionaire who could afford to buy any number of sails, used the same sail to win three of his world Masters titles.  My brother made it inside the top 25 of the open worlds and only ever owned one sail.  World champs Brett Bayer, Michael Blackburn and Krystal Weir also get far more use out of their sails than "one decent blow".
If the world champions can use the same sail for repeated championships then those who blame their results on a sail that "only lasts one decent blow" are just looking for an excuse.
Sigh..... I'd better go away again, and stop replying to this sort of stuff.



The point I was making was that a lot of the returns for the Laser are from old clapped out boats and not everyone has carbon top masts, XD etc or good sails. A two year old equally used Laser sail will not be as good as the same age and used Solo or Streaker sail

Edited by tink - 03 Mar 21 at 5:53am
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 21 at 8:32am
Originally posted by CT249


Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


Originally posted by iGRF

It's got more to do with the Laser performance in waves imv, certainly at our club, being over 14 ft which is the magic cutoff for dealing with waves at our particular neck of the channel, that and by the lee sailing dead downwind in waves..

A Laser is less than 14', 13' 9" LOA and only 12' 6" LWL (which is what matters)?


Childhood memory says 13' 10 1/2" overall length, but where does the 12'6" number come from? Maybe without a person on board, as the stem isn't that raked.
Still nowhere near 14 feet. Maybe the inland handicap bias is because lots of people who can't roll tack sail them on lakes compared to people in Solos?

Bruce Kirby told me in writing that the Laser was designed to have a waterline of 12'6", which he felt to be the minimum for good performance.


Still trying to work out how we lose 16" of the overall length, but I've never measured bow rake and I guess the transom is designed to be clear of the water.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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mongrel View Drop Down
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Posts: 304 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 21 at 9:50am
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by CT249


Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons


Originally posted by iGRF

It's got more to do with the Laser performance in waves imv, certainly at our club, being over 14 ft which is the magic cutoff for dealing with waves at our particular neck of the channel, that and by the lee sailing dead downwind in waves..

A Laser is less than 14', 13' 9" LOA and only 12' 6" LWL (which is what matters)?


Childhood memory says 13' 10 1/2" overall length, but where does the 12'6" number come from? Maybe without a person on board, as the stem isn't that raked.
Still nowhere near 14 feet. Maybe the inland handicap bias is because lots of people who can't roll tack sail them on lakes compared to people in Solos?

Bruce Kirby told me in writing that the Laser was designed to have a waterline of 12'6", which he felt to be the minimum for good performance.


Still trying to work out how we lose 16" of the overall length, but I've never measured bow rake and I guess the transom is designed to be clear of the water.
Probably 2” of gunwale, fore and aft (so 4”), leaving 12” of bow rake, sounds about right.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 21 at 11:40am
True, forgotten the stern overhang.

Shows what a great hull shape it is, really, that a whole plethora of longer waterline dinghies struggle to be significantly faster, despite rig advances.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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