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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Joined: 29 Sep 20
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: TheLaserClass
    Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 2:56pm
423zero. I already know what I know .  I have been following this story for years in the ‘ other place’ so I have already done my research. But I have only been on y&y for a short time and I am trying to play nice and I have already noticed you don’t like being criticised in anyway. ( see your last post. ) 
So I thought it would be better if I asked the nearest thing there is to an expert of this whole mess to comment . But even that seems to have put your nose out of joint , sorry  Cry

Jim C thanks for the  comment , shedding a little light on the subject. I hope you weren’t to embarrassed   Smile


Edited by Grumpycat - 27 Oct 20 at 3:08pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 2:41pm
In the very early days of the Kirby/Global sailing/LPE/Quartermoon/Velum dispute ILCA and ISAF were listed as defendants on some minor aspects of the lawsuit. It appears to be US litigation practice that you need to throw everything against the wall, just in case, because you won't be allowed to bring it up later.

Anyway ILCA and World Sailing ceased to be parties to the lawsuit years ago, and there is absolutely no judgement against them. Goodness only knows where you got that from.

It was clear to me from the videos that TLC can apply all they like (as indeed I can apply for International status for the one off I built a few years ago) but there is not a cat in hell's chance they will be recognised for anything while ILCA is in existence. World Sailing is completely free to grant or refuse International status as they consider appropriate.


Edited by JimC - 27 Oct 20 at 2:57pm
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 1:07pm
Grumpy cat, if you are unhappy with my post, do what everyone else does and do some research, instead of causing jimc to be embarrassed.
Robert
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 11:57am
Originally posted by 423zero

Not forgetting 'World sailing' and ILCA were also lumped in with LPE, all three were found guilty, none of them have paid the six million dollars.

Not sure that an actuate reading of the the events. Can Jim C shed a little light on this . 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 10:13am
I quite agree, and I too have not and will not buy from LP.  That’s said, I also find ILCA’s actions questionable and I am not totally convinced that there are altruistic good intentions behind all of their moves, so they don’t hold the moral high ground in this sorry saga. Hence I still won’t be buying!
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 10:11am
Not forgetting 'World sailing' and ILCA were also lumped in with LPE, all three were found guilty, none of them have paid the six million dollars.
Robert
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 8:07am
A2Z
Just because something is ‘legal’ does not mean we are obligated to go there.

We also make decisions based on our own values and ethics, not always going to the edge of the law.

I don’t own tabacco shares. And i chose, now there is a choice at last, hurrah, to sail the world’s most popular racing dinghy without a brass cent going to Rastegar. 

My Laser (sic) has needed some replacement, class legal, parts for ages, but I’ve been on a personal boycott of LP since it came out that Bruce Kirby was not being paid his dues, to the extent he took legal action.

If everyone took the same stand and we could make sure the less informed/interested were not duped, perhaps Rastegar would naff off out of sailing because his Laser activity had zero sales (hopefully making his other sailing products uneconomic to run in the process)


Gerald Ratner lost a jewelery empire with a careless jest, the ensuing media frenzy then totally alienating consumers from his business. I’d like to see Rastegar’s behaviour over the years, far far worse than Ratner’s, punished by consumer power and choice with the same ultimate result. Nothing to do with the law or ‘legal’.


Edited by fab100 - 27 Oct 20 at 8:09am
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 7:24am
Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by 423zero

It actually is a 'Laser' hopefully an accommodation can be reached sometime down the line, TLC doesn't appear to have much Internet traffic, perhaps they are close to fading, 'Kirby Torch class' style.

Err no . It’s just a boat called laser in the uk and USA , as no one is now checking their construction anymore , no one knows if it still built to class rules anymore. TBH we don’t even know if they are even being built at all at the moment. 
It now has no connection to the world wide international laser class association that has run the class for decades .
Rasty never backs down , win or lose , so there is only two chances of an accommodation . 
Fat chance and no chance  LOL
- It’s important to keep things factual.  Rastegar has the undisputed legal right to build and market boats called Laser and branded with a starburst logo in the UK, the EU, the former soviet block, the rest of Europe, Africa, North America, South America, Central America, the Middle East, China, the Indian sub-continent and beyond.  In fact, the whole world excluding South Korea, Japan and Oceania. 


- Rastegar is free to chose what this boat looks like and how it is built.  He cannot claim his boat was designed by Bruce Kirby, but it can look and be built* just as the Kirby boat is because any design rights that may have existed have long since ceased. Plagiarism is unethical and possibly bad business practice but it is not, of itself, illegal.  


- He and/or the boat owners are free to set up an organisation to coordinate racing activities for this class of boat - a class association.  If the class association believes it meets the published World Sailing criteria for becoming a recognised International class then it is free to apply for such status.  I do not know whether WS retain the right to refuse recognition if all criteria are demonstrably met. Coping sections of text from the ILCA class rules is a copyright infringement, though given that such rules have to conform to a standard WS template some duplication may be unavoidable.


- All of this is possibly moot if Rastegar has ceased production or if his reputation is so bad he can’t either finance his business or sell any products. But let’s not confuse the unethical or the undesirable with the illegal.


* With the exception of patented items such as the Mk2 sail which are legally protected.  



Edited by A2Z - 27 Oct 20 at 7:25am
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:56pm
They are saying only sails aren't class legal, probably just mean spares though, they were advertising Hulls for two and a half grand recently, class legal ones.
By reaching an accommodation, I meant all the Hulls being accepted by UKLA and ILCA, if TLC disappear.
Robert
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by 423zero

It actually is a 'Laser' hopefully an accommodation can be reached sometime down the line, TLC doesn't appear to have much Internet traffic, perhaps they are close to fading, 'Kirby Torch class' style.

Err no . It’s just a boat called laser in the uk and USA , as no one is now checking their construction anymore , no one knows if it still built to class rules anymore. TBH we don’t even know if they are even being built at all at the moment. 
It now has no connection to the world wide international laser class association that has run the class for decades .
Rasty never backs down , win or lose , so there is only two chances of an accommodation . 
Fat chance and no chance  LOL
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