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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: TheLaserClass
    Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 1:27pm
What I'm still trying to understand is how ICLA and LPE can both build the 'Kirby Sailboat' (irrespective of what name they give it), surely one must be infringing the IP rights of the other?
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by By The Lee

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by By The Lee

Laughable that anyone considers the TLC a legitimate organisation when they have stolen copy writed documents from ILCA
I'm not sure which document you are referring to but I'm guessing you mean the 'Laser Class Rules' which, 'cos the Laser/ILCA is an international class, are presumably, the property of World Sailing?
WRT LPE's right's to the boat formerly known as "the Weekender" either ILCA or World Sailing own the exclusive worldwide rights to the 'construction manual' or a licence to same, in which case they could prevent LPE from building 'Lasers', or LPE have a legitimate right to build lasers and, thus, a legitimate right to use the 'construction manual'. Since ILCA or WS have not sent a 'cease and desist' letter to LPE it's probably safe to assume that LPE have a legitimate right to build Lasers.

Incorrect the ILCA class rules belong to ILCA and were stolen by the TLC. The TLC have now written their own version.

I stand corrected the WS website has this to say on the matter "It is the responsibility of the ISAF Class Association to manage their Class Rules. All classes, especially those applying for status, are encouraged to use the ISAF Standard Class Rules template when writing their rules." however it's hard to see how one could be accused of stealing the rules for a boat you have the right to build. Sounds like ICLA are clutching at straws. WRT making their own set of class rules a few changes in wording would be sufficient and not much else would be acceptable to WS I guess given the requirement to use the WS rules template. 


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 24 Oct 20 at 1:24pm
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 1:04pm
https://www.trademarkelite.com/europe/trademark/trademark-owner/VELUM%20LIMITED/243657
Robert
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 12:59pm
Over the years licensed builders have come and gone, ultimately leading to the situation we see today where Performance Sailcraft Japan (PSJ) owns the trademark for Japan and Korea, Performance Sailcraft Australia (PSA) owns the trademark for Oceania and Velum (who licenses the trademark to LaserPerformance) claims rights to the LASER trademark in other parts of the world.
Taken from same page.
Robert
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By The Lee View Drop Down
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Posts: 114 		Post Options Post Options   Quote By The Lee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by By The Lee

Laughable that anyone considers the TLC a legitimate organisation when they have stolen copy writed documents from ILCA
I'm not sure which document you are referring to but I'm guessing you mean the 'Laser Class Rules' which, 'cos the Laser/ILCA is an international class, are presumably, the property of World Sailing?
WRT LPE's right's to the boat formerly known as "the Weekender" either ILCA or World Sailing own the exclusive worldwide rights to the 'construction manual' or a licence to same, in which case they could prevent LPE from building 'Lasers', or LPE have a legitimate right to build lasers and, thus, a legitimate right to use the 'construction manual'. Since ILCA or WS have not sent a 'cease and desist' letter to LPE it's probably safe to assume that LPE have a legitimate right to build Lasers.

Incorrect the ILCA class rules belong to ILCA and were stolen by the TLC. The TLC have now written their own version.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 12:57pm
Looking forward, the biggest visible change sailors will see is in the branding of the boats. ILCA does not own or control the LASER trademark and all attempts to achieve a worldwide licensing agreement amongst the three trademark owners for the Laser name and the sunburst logo failed last summer. As a result, in order to comply with World Sailing’s Olympic Equipment Policy, ILCA undertook a rule change vote to remove the requirement that approved builders must also have the rights to use the Laser trademark. The rule change, approved by 79% of the class members, will allow the class to “un-brand” and let new builders sell class legal equipment under alternate brand names. An important point to be made here is that there will no longer be artificial territories for the sale of class legal equipment – builders will now be allowed to compete directly against each other.
This is taken from ILCA page, link below.
http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2020/01/05/international-laser-class-association-the-past-present-and-future-of-our-class/
Robert
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Since ILCA or WS have not sent a 'cease and desist' letter to LPE it's probably safe to assume that LPE have a legitimate right to build Lasers.

Doesn't the multi million US court judgement against LPE demonstrate that they don't have that right? Not that it matters much since LPE are effectively defunct, and doubtless it will take another ten years and many lawyer's paydays to establish what rights LP LLC have.

But in any case LP are not claiming to build International Lasers, which would be the limits of World Sailing's rights.

Edited by JimC - 24 Oct 20 at 12:52pm
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 12:21pm
Ha ha 
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 11:50am

■     ILCA is not legally able to seek new manufacturers for Laser products in LP territory without LP’s consent. LP territory covers the world excluding Australia, New Zealand (PSA) and Japan, Korea (PSJ). This is a simple matter of ownership of intellectual property and LP will enforce against any party who attempts to violate LP’s intellectual property rights.


■     ILCA can indeed appoint new builders in Performance Sailcraft Australia (PSA) and Performance Sailcraft Japan (PSJ) limited territory; however, neither of them can supply boats into LP territory without LP’s consent.


■     PSA has tried in the past to import illegally into LP territory by a variety of schemes. LP has successfully enforced its property rights against PSA and will continue to enforce its rights against PSA and any collaborating dealers or persons. The last of such legal action was in Belgium and it was adjudicated in favor of LP with the dealer involved filing for bankruptcy to avoid payment of award pursuant to the court judgment.

This is boats called 'Laser' not boats called 'ILCA'



Edited by 423zero - 24 Oct 20 at 11:54am
Robert
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 20 at 11:42am
Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by 423zero


Seems very rude to accuse TLC and members of setting up to keep LPE in business.

But as the original idea for TLC and the money to set up TLC came from the holding companies behind LPE , it’s not a difficult conclusion to come to  Wink
Source?

Err the owner of LPE has been threatening the ILCA with setting up its own class association since it was deselected as a builder because of not allowing factory visits, as confirmed by members of the ILCA committee in various places . The evidence is out there,  you just have to look further than asking the 10 people that post on here.
If you want some hearsay evidence, when I was talking the the guys on the LPE stand at the dinghy show this year, when I asked why their boats didn’t have the proper WS/ILCA plaques, they said not to worry as they were going to set up their own class later in the year  LOL
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