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Nacnud_smada View Drop Down
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Posts: 50 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Nacnud_smada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Room for an obstruction
    Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 12:50pm
just to be clear.. 

Two boats a solo and laser sailing up to a windward mark.
There is an obstruction in the way in this case a pontoon.

Solo calls for room to tack.. Here's no reply so tacks and then there is a collision (no damage or injury) on the back corner of the laser who is tacking.

Laser is saying. Solo did not give room and opertunity - solo. Said I called waited no reply and needed to tack
I said that there has to be some atcipation as both boats know there pontoon is there.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 1:33pm
As so often happens as the details come out it gets messier. Never mind, we can sort it out.

Did the Laser tack as soon as possible after the hail? If so she has complied with her rule 20.2(c) obligation, without needing to say a word.

Leaving aside the 'room and opportunity' gibberish is Laser saying "I tacked as soon as I reasonably could, but Solo slammed into her tack without giving me enough time to respond"?
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Posts: 50 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Nacnud_smada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 1:42pm
Yes it very interesting, thank you for your time with it. 

Laser did say they tacked asap after hail... 
Solo did not slam in a tack.. solo waited for response. and heard not so tack..  no would where the impact on the boat now become relevant? as this i do not know..
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Similar situation the other day ... two boats sailing to windward on starboard with a couple of boat lengths separation, leeward calls "room" as a precursor to tacking then completes tack onto port at which point starboard tack boat calls him back onto port.

So S did not tack and did not hail 'you tack'. S broke rule 20.2(c).
Originally posted by davidyacht


If the windward boat had responded by saying "you tack" does the windward boat give away the right to call the leeward boat back onto starboard?

Absloutely not. See Case 101
Originally posted by davidyacht

How close does a hailed boat have to be to be obligated to respond?

Within hail?
Originally posted by davidyacht


Does a boat that does not need to respond have to either hail or manoeuvre even if the hail is opportunistic and unnecessary?

If she hears the hail she must respond (rule 20.2(b)).

IF she thinks she is far enough away that she need do nothing, her response is to hail 'you tack' immediately.

Edited by Brass - 24 Sep 20 at 1:53pm
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

Yes it very interesting, thank you for your time with it. Laser did say they tacked asap after hail... Solo did not slam in a tack.. solo waited for response. and heard not so tack..  no would where the impact on the boat now become relevant? as this i do not know..


If Laser tacked as soon as possible after the hail, she has complied with her obligation under rule 20.2(c), and that's the end of rule 20, and now we're back to pure right of way.

So contact occurred after both boats had passed head to wind from starboard onto port.

If neither had reached her close hauled course, then Solo will be on Laser's port side and is required to keep clear (rule 13 last sentence).

If Solo has reached her close hauled course and Laser has not, then Laser is required to keep clear (rule 13 first sentence).

If Solo has not reached her close hauled course and Laser has, then Solo is required to keep clear (rule 13 first sentence).

If both have reached close hauled, then I'm guessing contact was Solo's bow to Lasers port transom corner, in which case Solo was overlapped to windward on same tack as Laser, and required to keep clear.



Edited by Brass - 24 Sep 20 at 2:06pm
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Posts: 50 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Nacnud_smada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 2:08pm
Boom. thank you. all very simple really.. hahah thank you 
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 2:42pm
Thanks Brass for pointing to 101, I tried to find an appeal case but couldn't find an appropriate one
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 10:01pm
Duncan's original query revolved around Solo giving 'time to respond' (rule 20.2(a), and Laser tacking 'as soon as possible' (rule 20.2(c)).

Case 54 puts it very neatly

When the boats are clearly approaching an obstruction at which A will need room to tack, B must be alert to the situation and anticipate a hail from A. Anticipation is necessary because rule 20.2(c) requires B to respond either by immediately replying ‘You tack’ or by tacking as soon as possible. If B does not immediately hail ‘You tack’, A must give B the time required for a competent, but not expert, crew to prepare for and execute her tack in a seamanlike manner as soon as possible in the prevailing conditions.
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Posts: 50 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Nacnud_smada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 20 at 7:25am
Thank you Brass,  this is just what i needed. 
one question which will come back when we have another chat about this, is... what if laser says he did tack straight away ( but did not hail tacking, we know that) and there was impact... 

would the laser be in the wrong for not giving enough room? breaking rule 20? 
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Posts: 50 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Nacnud_smada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 20 at 7:34am
I think this just answered my above question dont you 

Question 3
What should A do if B does not respond to her hail?
Answer 3
Although the rule only requires one hail, if time permits it is prudent for A to repeat her hail. The lack of a response from B does not mean that A must hold her course. If needed, A should avoid the obstruction in the safest manner, which may include luffing up to head to wind or gybing. A can then protest if B has not responded as required by rule 20.2(
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