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Peter Barton View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Neptune

At our club all boats get to choose their rig, but their handicap is always based upon the fastest PY, I think that keeps people sailing longer and also stops bandits swapping up at the lower extreme

Yes, we have similar locally. The flexible rig rule was there for the Lasers before the RS Aeros arrived. Except we only allow changing down as changing up would then effect previous results if you adjust all those handicaps to the faster one.
However, in reality, with the exception of the series leaders, those with a choice option sail each race for the enjoyment of that race alone,  rather than a with focus on the whole series. So they just have a new series with a new rig. 
The flexibility helps participation (travelling, starting and finishing races), safety (not over canvassed) and enjoyment (of appropriate sized rig).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peter Barton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by Peter Barton

 
Surely the ability of a hull to carry weight is more a function of the hull design shape and size rather than its weight. Ultimately it is the all up total weight (boat + sailor) that needs to be considered in terms off 'carrying' ability.
'Overpowering' is not an issue until the breeze is up and a heavier sailor is then more able to deal with that. Before then the extra power does help with initiating speed and acceleration.


So, your boat weights say 50 kilos. we have a hobbit helm who also weighs 50 kilos. We also have a helm who weighs 75 kilos. He is sailing at a 25% weight disadvantage.

Let's take a boat that weighs 75 kilos. and the same two helms. The heavier helm now has a 17.75% disadvantage by my (very quick, please forgive me if i'm wrong) maths.

Thats one reason why the lighter a boat is the harder it is to make it carry weight. Your variable (crew) weight is a larger portion of the whole package and it can be reduced easily and legally by changing the sailor. I think its more of a problem for two person boats, but it must also apply here.


Understood. I was considering the ability of the design shape to carry extra weight and you are considering the increased proportional difference's effect on equality.

You are suggesting the extra weight is a disadvantage though, I would suggest that a good proportion of the time it is not. 
In the middle ground there is a whole load of interesting racing with the heavier sailor trying to gain more upwind than he might lose downwind......What are the downwind angles? Is it marginal planing or blast reaching? Will the lighter sailor be able to make a comeback downwind through traffic? Wind with tide or against? Waves or not?
Those weight differences playing out into an overall result, especially over a long series, are really restricted to similar good ability sailors in boat speed prioritised conditions. Otherwise many other race variables and skills will be the deciding factor.

Personally, having experienced it, I will always take the 50kg all up weight boat over the 75kg one, thanks. I have never felt the urge to suggest that all RS Aero sailors add 25kg to their boats so that they can reduce that proportional difference and have more momentum to push though waves rather than popping agilely over and around them.

If a boat could could be made at 0kg all up weight I would be at the front of that queue. It would be like a non foiling foiler - weightless! I could tie it down to a ballasted trolley when ashore and be sure to hook myself to the end of the mainsheet when afloat to avoid ever losing it.


Edited by Peter Barton - 10 Sep 20 at 4:34pm
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 3:35pm
The multi-sail concept is absolutely fine imo.  'More people sailing across more of the wind range for very much more of the time' is the simple argument.  So the forecast says its going to blow dogs off chains ...  and quite a few of the lighter or more 'mature' types as well might give that class open or even local club series day a miss.  Give them a viable option of being able to sail with a more modest sail size and they still come along.  The forecast might even be wrong and have over-estimated the wind likely.. if they turn up they can still sail with the 'standard' sail or with that smaller one..  Stay at home, given that forecast, and they get to sail nothing.  That is poor for them, poor for the club involved and poor for the class they have chosen.  The converse is also true with heavies not seeing the point of  turning up in the face of a light breeze forecast.

The 'purist' my not approve - but then they so rarely do ...  Some of them in their 'traditional' class however think nothing of having a 'special cut' sail for lighter or heavier conditions.  Others in their strict ( only one sail) SMOD don't seem to mind if their class is increasingly populated just by people of very similar statures and weights ...and ages.  Loosen up a bit guys is my message - there is more than one way to do things.  (Thank goodness !)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 2:44pm
"Hull has a lower increase in surface area drag for the increase in displacement"

Can someone explain this statement? I thought that as a sphere as the maximum volume for minimum surface area that a rounded hull like the laser would gain surface area at a lower rate than a chined hull.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 1:39pm
well 40 odd years of tank testing and progressive development is clearly for something.... best of luck to the Aero, who knows, I might even buy one oneday.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 1:01pm
The shapes are very different, and a chined Hull has a lower increase in surface area drag for the increase in displacement. Jo had this in mind with the hull design. The angles are not there for their aesthetics.
The difference given an appropriate rig should therefore be smaller.
There will be a difference in acceleration for sure. But that is the same in any boat.
If the light weight can remain in any way competitive upwind, they will be earlier to plane off wind, as long as the reaches are not set too tight, and will usually make up more than they loose.

But this Brings us back to the fundamental question. Is the aero an all round boat for a 90kg Sailor?. Are you going to be competitive against a lighter sailor in night to moderate winds, unlikely. Are you going to sail a rewarding boat that really flies in a breeze and will get up on the plane earlier than you would in most other single handlers, yes.
If you sail for fun and don’t have the time, fitness, solvency and water to sail a Musto skiff or a moth. It’s a great boat. If you want to win every race on handicap, well, there are a couple of boats that may be good, but if you don’t like Finns and Phantoms you need to loose 7-10 kilos.
My favourite boat still is a N12. But always having been over 75kg and often over 80. I was never going to be super competitive. But that was not why I sailed them.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 11:49am
Yep - I can appreciate that, there was noticeable uplift in performance at just under 90kg in a Laser! 

 I would imagine the Aero is similar in this regard..... 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 11:27am
Originally posted by turnturtle


As for the Aero - it still looks like a boat for lightweights to me, the multiple rigs (or certainly between the 7 & 9) do not 'add value' imho.  No harm in this, gthe Aero's a cracking success and nice to see it building fleets around the UK.

I have to say I've been quite surprised how competitive the Aero has been from light teenage girls on a 5 to heavy 50+ year olds like myself on a 9. On handicap, many times the girls win and many times the heavy weights win, across a range of conditions. It has been a much greater leveller than I was expecting and at just under 90kg I don't feel held back. I can imagine that above 90 the weight factor kicks in quickly, rather than tapers, simply due to the short length. 

To be honest the bigger problem is my 6'6" frame as the cockpits are small and I miss the space of a Phantom.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 11:13am
Originally posted by davidyacht

Or you could have a single PY that reflects that an Aero which could be rigged with any of the three rigs, this could be faster, since the sailor would always be selecting the optimal rig

But then you would need to own all 3 rigs, a significant extra cost.....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 20 at 9:01am
Originally posted by Wiclif

Or you could have the issue of the lighter sailors changing up as the wind drops, potentially spoiling a heavier sailors event.

was this not an inevitability?  What might happen in sea breezes and class events doesn't translate to the puddles in a F1-2 on a midweek evening.

Lighter helms that can plane offwind are always going to have an advantage around the cans... if the planing threshold drops by even a couple of knots of wind speed by a increase in sail area, it's going to make a significant difference offwind... why else run kites on other boats?

I dropped nearly 30kg when I last owned a Laser and my results improved significantly.... I definitely wasn't any better a sailor, nor arguably any 'fitter' (in fact, I got pneumonia and could barely lift 25kg bags without a struggle for the first time since I was 16), but I could at least hold station off wind again.

As for the Aero - it still looks like a boat for lightweights to me, the multiple rigs (or certainly between the 7 & 9) do not 'add value' imho.  No harm in this, gthe Aero's a cracking success and nice to see it building fleets around the UK.
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