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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Solo changes survey
    Posted: 23 Sep 19 at 8:44am
Originally posted by jeffers


[QUOTE=stonefish]These proposed changes are going to be very bad for the class, hardly anyone is going to win with this.
You will piss off the builders because no one is going to buy a new solo anytime soon knowing a new version is coming in a year or so and then more potential changes after that. 
You will piss off the owners that have just purchased new boats because all of a sudden their resale value has dramatically dropped because it's not a new design boat.
You will piss off the owners of perfectly competitive older boats that have no correctors or have removed some to keep it on weight because new boats will come in at 3kg less.
You will piss off any solo owner that isn't planning on shelling out 10k out for a new design boat anytime soon because all of a sudden new boats will appear that are lighter, easier to recover from a capsize, more comfortable to sail etc. because when they purchased their boat they thought they were getting a one design boat.
All for what making the boat slightly better. There is a reason the solo is the second most popular class in the country, it's design is a winning formula and people that own them accept it has its flaws in the knowledge they are all in the same boat.

In my experience the current generation of FRP boats are considerably quicker than the more traditional boats. Combine that with a sail development and the 'optimised' hulls means the boat is a fair bit quicker that the PY would suggest.The suggested changes my exacerbate that a little more. However with so many older boats still racing at club level week in, week out the PY wont catch up. The Fireball PY is only just starting to level out following the 'wide bow' revolution




.............................

I can generally beat late frp boats in my woodie at club level. But when Andy "taxi" Davis has come to Blithfield for a sail he beats me by 50 yds. However, I am certain that if we swapped boats and Andy had an hour to set up my boat properly with his own sail he would beat me by 48 yds in race 2!.

The new boats are faster, but then there is a far higher % of the fastest sailors in them.

But either way, in a one design class, making changes to the rules that are difficult or impossible to apply to all boats that are still being raced is very unfair. Like applying a rule to remove 3 kilo of correctors from a boat that has none.

Edited by ian.r.mcdonald - 23 Sep 19 at 11:57am
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 19 at 8:53am
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

Originally posted by jeffers


[QUOTE=stonefish]These proposed changes are going to be very bad for the class, hardly anyone is going to win with this.
You will piss off the builders because no one is going to buy a new solo anytime soon knowing a new version is coming in a year or so and then more potential changes after that. 
You will piss off the owners that have just purchased new boats because all of a sudden their resale value has dramatically dropped because it's not a new design boat.
You will piss off the owners of perfectly competitive older boats that have no correctors or have removed some to keep it on weight because new boats will come in at 3kg less.
You will piss off any solo owner that isn't planning on shelling out 10k out for a new design boat anytime soon because all of a sudden new boats will appear that are lighter, easier to recover from a capsize, more comfortable to sail etc. because when they purchased their boat they thought they were getting a one design boat.
All for what making the boat slightly better. There is a reason the solo is the second most popular class in the country, it's design is a winning formula and people that own them accept it has its flaws in the knowledge they are all in the same boat.

In my experience the current generation of FRP boats are considerably quicker than the more traditional boats. Combine that with a sail development and the 'optimised' hulls means the boat is a fair bit quicker that the PY would suggest.The suggested changes my exacerbate that a little more. However with so many older boats still racing at club level week in, week out the PY wont catch up. The Fireball PY is only just starting to level out following the 'wide bow' revolution

I can generally beat late frp boats in my woodie at club level. But when Andy "taxi" Davis has come to Blithfield for a sail he beats me by 50 yds. However, I am certain that if we swapped boats and Andy had an hour to set up my boat properly with his own sail he would beat me by 48 yds in race 2!.

The new boats are faster, but then there is a far higher % of the fastest sailors in them.

But either way, in a one design class, making changes to the rules that are difficult or impossible to apply to all boats that are still being raced is very unfair. Like applying a rule to remove 3 kilo of correctors from a boat that has none.

There was a noticeable step change at my local club, as people went from the older generation of boats they made a significant step in performance. Some you can attribute to having a new sail/better set up boat. The rest is down to the boat simply being quicker. Even the guy with his well maintained Thesher wood boat jumped forward when he got a new boat so there is a performance advantage to it.

I am not saying that is a bad thing, classes should evolve slowly even strict ODs (or they get left behind).
Paul
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 19 at 9:03am
I've measured a pretty consistent 5% jump with wood to foam sandwich in Solos. That was even the case when a sailor changed from a year old wood boat built to exploit tolerances in the same way as the plastic ones. I was amazed at such a large differential, but I have very good confidence in the numbers.

I haven't done a 3kg comparison, but it would be an interesting thing to try. We did a formal comparison for the Toppers when they adopted centremains, and if the Solo assn thought it worthwhile I'm sure we could organise a trial event for them at my club.

Edited by JimC - 23 Sep 19 at 9:04am
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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 19 at 11:42am
You could well be right Jim. And on that basis, lowering the weight by 3 kilo from most boats is going to make the differential wider as boats without that weight are left behind.

And it would be easy to suggest that 3 kilo makes very little difference. It's the weight of water scooped up on an enthusiastic roll tack.

But if it has little effect, how is the reweighing,certification etc etc of possibly over 2000 boats worthwhile?
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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 19 at 11:50am
You could well be right Jim. And on that basis, lowering the weight by 3 kilo from most boats is going to make the differential wider as boats without that weight are left behind.

And it would be easy to suggest that 3 kilo makes very little difference. It's the weight of water scooped up on an enthusiastic roll tack.

But if it has little effect, how is the reweighing,certification etc etc of possibly over 2000 boats worthwhile?

And just to confirm your proposal, I was a week away from buying a late Frp boat before all this kicked off. Of course the latest boats are faster, I just need to know what they will look like before I buy one.
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 19 at 12:01pm
Bearing in mind the vastly greater differential in all up weight, when you include variation in the sailor's weights, it would be interesting to see how much difference the weight actually makes. And of course if its next to none, then there's not much value in reweighing and recertifying all those boats.

Incidentally, how many people do you know who regularly reweigh and recertify their boats? It ought to be done if you really believe the odd kg is significant. Do they weigh all the boats at Solo Champs? A database showing actual weights and correctors carried would be of interest.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 19 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by JimC



Incidentally, how many people do you know who regularly reweigh and recertify their boats? It ought to be done if you really believe the odd kg is significant. Do they weigh all the boats at Solo Champs? A database showing actual weights and correctors carried would be of interest.

I dont think they do but the Cert will show how much corrector weigh should be in the boat.

You can always elect to have your boat re-measured/weighed but I dont imagine many people would do this.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 19 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by JimC

Bearing in mind the vastly greater differential in all up weight, when you include variation in the sailor's weights, it would be interesting to see how much difference the weight actually makes. And of course if its next to none, then there's not much value in reweighing and recertifying all those boats.

Incidentally, how many people do you know who regularly reweigh and recertify their boats? It ought to be done if you really believe the odd kg is significant. Do they weigh all the boats at Solo Champs? A database showing actual weights and correctors carried would be of interest.

Every boat is weighed at scrutineering at the National Championships; the mast weight is also measured.

I wouldnt expect an FRP boat to change that much from the weight that is shown on the certificate, but if it was, it would prompt me to reduce the corrector weight and remeasure.

I doubt if "old school" sailors would change correctors without remeasuring.
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Posts: 6 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sixlasers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 19 at 4:52pm
I went to the solo nationals in 2015 with an older Winder boat (sub 4300 sail number). Imagine my surprise when it weighed 3kg too light! I thought I was going to be kicked out but they handed me a 3kg lump of lead sheeting and told me to roll it up and tape it to the back of the centreboard case. The extra 3kg did not materially affect my performance. 
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Posts: 13 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yottiemad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 19 at 7:41pm
I went to the 2018 So slow nationals @ HISC. I was also given a Roll of lead @ 3kg for my 2004 all wood Boon boat. It was a hot summer and boat had spent many hours with the hatches out in the sun.
The measuring team told me It was probably originally weighed in with a Silva bulkhead compass with a heavy bracket rather than the Tacktick now fitted. As people have mentioned in other posts there are many ways for builders to make a boat measure when new.
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