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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 10:02am
Originally posted by mozzy

]I think Case 78 is what's relevant here and I think it was a big mistake to include handicap and rated events in that case. 

Its difficult though. There's the two boats of very similar performance scenario and the one design results extracted from handicap racing scenario. Whilst I'm not comfortable with A Class via Optimist say, I think pragmatically there are fewer problems caused by having the case apply to everything than there are in attempting to draw a firm boundary where none can exist.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 10:01am
Originally posted by 423zero

Oli, I would sail my correct course in the slow boat, deliberately manoeuvring to prevent overtaking boat from getting past is unsportsmanlike.


In a pursuit race near the finish ? I cant believe that you'd wave through a quicker boat on the line ?

A pursuit race is totally different from the original topic of this thread

If the answer to the original question (should you slow up a slower boat in a club series to win it - despite ruining both of your races) is anything other than 'I'm embarrassed and wont do it again' I think you'd have to look very hard at why you are club racing

At our club (which is of a high standard generally and well attended) people would laugh at you I'm afraid

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 10:00am
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by CT249

Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by CT249

If one crew cannot use one characteristic of their boat (in this case its superior speed) to win, then why can another crew use another characteristic of their boat, such as its superior pointing or faster tacking? 
But its not using the boats superior speed to get around the course quicker, which is accounted for in the handicap, but it's using it's superior speed to repeatedly get ahead and hinder a slower boat.
With great respect though (honestly) one can ask why is there much difference between (for example) sailor A using their boat's superior speed to cover another boat to win, and sailor B using their boat's superior tacking speed or light wind ability to win. 
You can ask, but it's really very black and white. See bold above. 

Superior speed around the course, including ability to roll tack, angles of sail etc. are what the handicap is formulated to level out (it doesn't always do it well, but that's what you sign up for). Using your boat strengths to sail as fast as possible around the course is the aim of the game. Using the attributes of your boat to repeatedly slow another boat is not not accounted for in the handicap. The premise of handicaps specifically assumes that boats racing are trying to complete the course in the shortest time as possible, which is subtly different to fleet racing. 

There is a very clear difference. 

Again, we may be just coming from different backgrounds. I've done a fair bit of racing in yachts under rating rules where there is no premise that boats are trying to complete the course in the shortest possible time; they compete using strategy and boat-on-boat tactics against nearby craft, and no one complains. For example, when the Admiral's Cup was pretty much the world's top offshore regatta it seems to have been perfectly acceptable for a team's big boat to give dirty air to the smaller boats of the other teams.  When racing in the offshore nationals on one of the UK's top boats it was considered perfectly reasonable to use our boat's ability to go slow and high and lee bow other boats to force them to tack away.  Other boats did the same sort of thing and no one complained - the use of each boat's strengths for tactical advantage is seen as an inherent and unavoidable part of the game. Without it, much of the fascination would be lost.

Either all such yachties are dirty rotten scoundrels, or this is an issue that is open to reasonable but differing views.  

Please note that I personally have never close covered a slower boat as the OP mentioned; I prefer to sail clean which is why I've never ever been DSQd in my life (apart from the other day, when some of us followed an incorrect course diagram drawn by a class official who was involved in running the event).  The fact that I am not condemning their actions does not mean that I do the same sort of thing.

I'm just not sure that I can condemn the OP's actions as clearly as some have done, nor have I ever seen anything that says that handicaps assume boats are trying to complete the course as fast as possible without using boat-on-boat tactics.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 9:47am
Originally posted by CT249

 
There are so many different scenarios that it seems hard to state any strict rules about this sort of situation, IMHO. 
Every action you take should be to get your boat to the finish as quick as possible. Anything outside that is unsporting. 

In terms of the racing rules of sailing I wouldn't go as far as saying you should always sail your proper course. As getting out to one side of a pack of boats to get clear air so you can get to the finish quicker is legitimate. 

I think Case 78 is what's relevant here and I think it was a big mistake to include handicap and rated events in that case. 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Oli

asking all....  in a pursuit race what would you do if being the faster boat and just seconds from taking the lead from the slowest boat and seconds from the finish?  

do you sail around them?  or attack?

or in the slower boat and trying to retain the lead with just seconds to go to the finish?

do you accept they sail around or do you defend?

In general, I can't see a pursuit race as being place to try and race other boats down the fleet.

However, if a slower boat were to try and make it difficult for a faster boat to pass as you suggest I wouldn't really have much of a problem. This is the reverse of what we've been talking about. It's relatively easy for a fast boat to sail a slow boat down the fleet, it's much more difficult for a slow boat to stop a fast one sailing through. If they have the skill to do it they probably deserve to finish in front.
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 9:32am
Originally posted by 423zero

Oli, I would sail my correct course in the slow boat, deliberately manoeuvring to prevent overtaking boat from getting past is unsportsmanlike.

Why?  It's something that seems to happen a lot in yacht racing and I've never heard of anyone calling it unsportsmanlike. It's pretty much accepted that in yachts and development classes, you can hold someone up in conditions where their boat is faster than yours, so you can stay with them until you encounter the conditions that favour your boat.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 9:21am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by mozzy

It's one of the frustrations of handicap racing that the element of boat on boat and boat on fleet in any meaningful way is lost.

Others may consider that a major benefit.

True... and others would then be pretty peeved off when someone engaged them in a one sided match race! 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 9:18am
Originally posted by CT249

Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by CT249

If one crew cannot use one characteristic of their boat (in this case its superior speed) to win, then why can another crew use another characteristic of their boat, such as its superior pointing or faster tacking? 
But its not using the boats superior speed to get around the course quicker, which is accounted for in the handicap, but it's using it's superior speed to repeatedly get ahead and hinder a slower boat.
With great respect though (honestly) one can ask why is there much difference between (for example) sailor A using their boat's superior speed to cover another boat to win, and sailor B using their boat's superior tacking speed or light wind ability to win. 
You can ask, but it's really very black and white. See bold above. 

Superior speed around the course, including ability to roll tack, angles of sail etc. are what the handicap is formulated to level out (it doesn't always do it well, but that's what you sign up for). Using your boat strengths to sail as fast as possible around the course is the aim of the game. Using the attributes of your boat to repeatedly slow another boat is not not accounted for in the handicap. The premise of handicaps specifically assumes that boats racing are trying to complete the course in the shortest time as possible, which is subtly different to fleet racing. 

There is a very clear difference. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 9:03am
Oli, I would sail my correct course in the slow boat, deliberately manoeuvring to prevent overtaking boat from getting past is unsportsmanlike.

Edited by 423zero - 06 Aug 19 at 9:03am
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Oli View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 8:03am
asking all....  in a pursuit race what would you do if being the faster boat and just seconds from taking the lead from the slowest boat and seconds from the finish?  

do you sail around them?  or attack?

or in the slower boat and trying to retain the lead with just seconds to go to the finish?

do you accept they sail around or do you defend?
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