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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Aug 19 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by Do Different

... tenuous connections to justify being bit of a bad egg.

That's rather harsh. If you are at a club where folks prefer a more aggressive game within the rules then its fair enough. As long as what goes around comes around and folks are happy with the way they play the game why not.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 19 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Man, there's some twisting and what ifs coming out to play.

No dilemma in my mind.

Handicap racing is by definition racing against the clock, ...




no it isn't.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 19 at 9:09pm
If it's not against the clock then what? 

Sorry, correction, being a bad egg in my opinion. I personally wouldn't deliberately impede a slower  or hold up a faster boat, no point and no glory in my mind.

edited for typo.








Edited by Do Different - 05 Aug 19 at 9:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 19 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by CT249

If one crew cannot use one characteristic of their boat (in this case its superior speed) to win, then why can another crew use another characteristic of their boat, such as its superior pointing or faster tacking? 

But its not using the boats superior speed to get around the course quicker, which is accounted for in the handicap, but it's using it's superior speed to repeatedly get ahead and hinder a slower boat.

It's one of the frustrations of handicap racing that the element of boat on boat and boat on fleet in any meaningful way is lost. 

On a similar note, i'd think seriously about racing out even a scratch boat in a long club series. People often don't have discards because life gets in the way, punishing them for that isn't a great way to make friends either.

At a championship, where everyone is racing under the same rules, with the same opportunity I'd be more inclined to try to exploit discard advantage, but even then it would depend on how they came by their drop score... if it was just poorly sailed race, or a DSQ then I might, but if they'd been t-boned on a start, or had an unfortunate breakage, or an injury, or just picked up that discard on a day I deemed to be pretty fluky then I'd shy away from any match racing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 19 at 9:18pm
Slight cross purposes with Chris's post, I think. Would the cat sailor on a breezy day sail back down the fleet to cover a Laser sailor?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 19 at 10:04pm
Exactly Mozzy.  Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 19 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by mozzy

It's one of the frustrations of handicap racing that the element of boat on boat and boat on fleet in any meaningful way is lost.

Others may consider that a major benefit.

Edited by JimC - 05 Aug 19 at 10:37pm
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 19 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Completely with Jim and Sam on this, it's not difficult to grasp the difference.

CT. to my mind your arguments are just a lot of tenuous connections to justify being bit of a bad egg.



To my mind you merely stated a position as if it was the only valid one and then ignored the complexities involved.

Handicap racing is racing against your opposition just like class racing, but with a time correction at the end. In events like ORC or IRC racing, using tactics against an opposition boat that rates differently is seen as perfectly fair and reasonable, just as it is in class racing. 






Edited by CT249 - 06 Aug 19 at 1:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 12:09am
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by CT249

If one crew cannot use one characteristic of their boat (in this case its superior speed) to win, then why can another crew use another characteristic of their boat, such as its superior pointing or faster tacking? 

But its not using the boats superior speed to get around the course quicker, which is accounted for in the handicap, but it's using it's superior speed to repeatedly get ahead and hinder a slower boat.

It's one of the frustrations of handicap racing that the element of boat on boat and boat on fleet in any meaningful way is lost. 

On a similar note, i'd think seriously about racing out even a scratch boat in a long club series. People often don't have discards because life gets in the way, punishing them for that isn't a great way to make friends either.

At a championship, where everyone is racing under the same rules, with the same opportunity I'd be more inclined to try to exploit discard advantage, but even then it would depend on how they came by their drop score... if it was just poorly sailed race, or a DSQ then I might, but if they'd been t-boned on a start, or had an unfortunate breakage, or an injury, or just picked up that discard on a day I deemed to be pretty fluky then I'd shy away from any match racing. 

With great respect though (honestly) one can ask why is there much difference between (for example) sailor A using their boat's superior speed to cover another boat to win, and sailor B using their boat's superior tacking speed or light wind ability to win. It may seem that in one case the slower boat has almost no chance because it is slower, but in my club the opposite applies and the fast cat - the current world champ and former Olympic silver medallist - has almost no chance against me on my Radial. I happily roll tack when he can't, and I will sail up to him when he is stuck in a calm. Overall I seem to have about a 15% advantage on corrected time.  If he could overcome that and sail me down the fleet in a vital last race, good on him - it would just mean that I didn't sail well enough earlier.

There are so many different scenarios that it seems hard to state any strict rules about this sort of situation, IMHO. What, for example, if the sailors were both on Lasers but one was on a Radial?  What about if the race was held in 25 knots, in which the Radial is actually faster?  Can the Radial sailor then hold the big rig sailor back because although the Radial is faster on the water in those conditions, it's rated slower?  What about if it's gusty and 10-25, or 6 knots?  Where do we draw the line?

What about if the faster boat is a couple of kids in a beaten up old banger who have sailed brilliantly, and the slower boat is a big-budget PY bandit that normally has a huge advantage on that water?  If, for example, a couple of kids borrowed an old Tasar (which is a faster boat but not as good as a Laser on yardstick on our water) and could win the club championship by driving my Laser back, I'd congratulate them on sailing well.  I'd say that they were far more deserving winners than if, for example, I'd dragged my PY bandit class out of the shed, or bought a PY bandit.

Our attitudes towards these things are probably shaped by things such as whether we've done big-boat rating-rule racing (where optimising the boat to rate at the top of its class so that it can control the fleet is seen as perfectly valid, and where the big boats are often at a disadvantage in long races) and how seriously we take PY racing and club racing (which in my case is not at all).

You're dead right that the most important thing is to concentrate on friendship rather than winning trophies. Personally, that includes respecting the fact that other people have different opinions about things like match racing.




Edited by CT249 - 06 Aug 19 at 1:33am
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 19 at 7:34am
With great respect though (honestly) one can ask why is there much difference between (for example) sailor A using their boat's superior speed to cover another boat to win, and sailor B using their boat's superior tacking speed or light wind ability to win.

In case B it's what you sign up for in handicap racing - it's not perfect but it allows classes with different characteristics to race on an apporximately level field. We all know we have to accept that handicaps are not perfect, and some boats will do better in some conditions and visa versa. That's perfectly clear. But we also know that, if the handicap is good, a crew who make the best of their boat should win out over one that doesn't over a series.

But there is a fundamental difference between getting the best out of your boat - which is a skill and using your boats greater speed to sail someone down through the fleet. Where is the skill in that? Yes, in two matched boats there is real skill and tactics incolved, but that's a completely different situation to a handicap race between a fast and a slow boat. I'm amazed some people seem to find that so hard to grasp.
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