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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dilemma
    Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

It may 'only be club racing'  and also even that 'second rate' category of handicap racing at that... to a few 'racing pedants' and purists anyway ....
'Anything goes' for some within a legalistic definition of the rules in their seemingly narrow minded self serving elite racing world.  And 'we' as a sport cannot do better than this ??
I doubt they ever see any connection with a gradual decline in racing numbers and a decline in simple enjoyment through sailing and racing  ... you know around the clubs that nurture racing at its grass roots level and beyond.   I'll tell you here and in simple terms.  It is not right and hiding behind 'rules' or perhaps the absence of suitably nuanced rules that would stop such tactics does not make it right either. 


On the other hand people are also put off by people applying fictitious rules or interpreting them in a fictitious way.

Stonefish - well done! You did the right thing. You owe it your competitors to sail as hard as you can to beat them. That’s how you earn their respect. You also made a tactical race out of a drag race! Good stuff.

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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Personally I think trying to impose your own fictitious rules on other people...

The OP was talking about imposing a rule on himself.

My own rule book contains a number of things that aren't in the World Sailing one. I add them, frankly, to reinforce my own good opinion of myself.

Personally I consider handicap racing to be primarily against the clock, and covering tactics to have little place in it. The place for that is fleet racing. The rules say differently, well fair enough. They have to really. But if I'm in a 505 I am not going to slap a match racing cover on a Solo no matter what's at stake.

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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by RS400atC

Personally I think trying to impose your own fictitious rules on other people...

The OP was talking about imposing a rule on himself.

My own rule book contains a number of things that aren't in the World Sailing one. I add them, frankly, to reinforce my own good opinion of myself.

Personally I consider handicap racing to be primarily against the clock, and covering tactics to have little place in it. The place for that is fleet racing. The rules say differently, well fair enough. They have to really. But if I'm in a 505 I am not going to slap a match racing cover on a Solo no matter what's at stake.



Not often I say this, but well said and posted.
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 4:34pm
FWIW, in our major winter series, I sought and was granted average points for the race that my boat was on show at the dinghy exhibition, because I thought it would be the only way I would be able to have enough races on the board to qualify for the series. (We have a rule where you can claim average points for one away open meeting attendance in a series; my dinghy show situation was analogous but not anticipated in the rules)

As it turned out, a change of circumstances meant I did manage to sail an additional race, but the average points were already in Sailwave, which then showed I'd won the series. I withdrew my claim for average points, that I was nevertheless now 'entitled' to, even though it meant I dropped to second overall.




Edited by fab100 - 30 Jul 19 at 4:34pm
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Oinks View Drop Down
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Posts: 267 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oinks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 7:00pm
So, if somebody in a boat that is 1 point on the handicap scale faster than another, is it fair for them to cover that boat/sail them down the fleet? I'd say yes. But where do you draw the line? I don't think you really can.
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by Oinks

So, if somebody in a boat that is 1 point on the handicap scale faster than another, is it fair for them to cover that boat/sail them down the fleet? I'd say yes. But where do you draw the line? I don't think you really can.


There is a massive difference between covering and sailing someone down the fleet.
Most of us will use cover and expect cover to be put on is in reverse.

Just because rules allow you to do something does not mean you should.

I am glad, here there was an apology.
Andy Mck
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 10:09pm
On the other hand people are also put off by people applying fictitious rules or interpreting them in a fictitious way ....

'You' know when you are screwning with 'natural justice' surely ... If you don't then you are welcome to that dodgy bit of 'trophy hardware'  you are after - it then really means not a lot surely to any with a right mind.  If you really need a written rule to always be your guide on this at all but the very highest level then many of us must simply pity you.   

If I, in an extreme hypothetical case, sailed say a junior in an Oppi down the fleet in the last race in a handicap fleet to 'win' overall some local club handicap series that would be OK with you would it ?  ... Really ?  Think about a while it a while before you reply.  Nothing fictitious mind you please  ...
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 10:29pm
There is of course option 3) Get your mate to take him out like our esteemed Olympic champion did in 2012.
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 19 at 5:38am
Using such tactics against a similar boa in a club event in order to win a series is a bit dubious (maybe a bit sad) but to cover a slower boat !

Covering a slower boat requires very little skill

I think the majority of club sailors wouldn't be particularly impressed


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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 19 at 6:34am
Why do people say "only a club race"?

It's because it is a club race, people sailing together week after week, that this matters. If the only boat that can beat me is a Topper, and I can literally sail rings round it, and then discard the race to win a trophy, that isn't a fair way of winning, despite it being allowed in the rules.
Covering a boat to keep ahead is a totally different matter.
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