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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dilemma
    Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 7:00am
This really is a very British thread. Winning - just not the done thing!

For gods sake, if the racing at this club is so good that it means this much for someone to win that has got to be a good thing surely? The next thing you'll be saying is that you can't claim mark room, call starboard or - heaven forbid - luff a slower boat because its unsporting.

If you are sailing the same course, off the same start you are sailing in the same race. If you are racing against each other you do battle within the rules. Your boat is unimportant.

Using the rules is an important skill, best learned at club level in good club racing. Few clubs can offer this these days, and the attitude in here is a big part of the reason why. I often hear people say "its only club racing" usually to excuse blatant, deliberate cheating.

There is a big difference between what Stonefish did, the shenanigans at Draycote a few years ago and blatant cheating. He did not cheat, he outsailed an opponent sailing in the same race as him. Legitimately.

Well done Stonefish :)
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 19 at 5:21am
Originally posted by stonefish

What would you do in this scenario:
Last race in a club handicap series, you are leading the series overall and a slower handicap boat is in second place, you are the only two left in the series with a chance of winning.  If the slower handicap boat wins this last race they win the series, if they come 2nd or worse you win the series. The wind strength for the last race is suited to the slower handicap boat.
Do you:
1. Cover them the whole race meaning someone else wins the race but you win the series
2. Try and win the race yourself and if you don't hope someone else apart from the 2nd place boat in the series does but in the knowledge the wind strength is very favourable for the 2nd place boat
3. Something else
I recently did number 1 and won the series but felt bad afterwards, should I?


Good for you for feeling bad

A club handicap event is not the Olympics !

There was something similar a few years ago when a Fireball (starting ahead in the fast handicap fleet of a national handicap series) waited for a Phantom (starting 5 minutes later in the medium handicap) and covered it to ruin its race and ensure that the fireball won overall

I think they hung their heads in shame afterwards



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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 19 at 9:31pm
Depends on how much you like winning and how you define winning I guess.
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 19 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by andymck


This happened in the sailjuice series a few years ago. It did not go down well.

I don't think thats *Quite* what happened.

If it's the incident I recall, on separate starts a boat on start 2 harangued a boat trying to start on start one. This, quite rightly, went down like a lead balloon. I must admit I found the public trial by internet less tasteful than the "offence" itself - you could have called that bullying. 

As to whether this was cricket - I think it depends. At out club this weekend in my GP I almost (Should have but for a windshift) beat the lead Merlin on the water (decent sailor too). Its surprising how well matched some classes can be at certain venues and in certain conditions. 

If someone is good enough to be capable of winning a series they should be able to deal with your tactics. He didn't, and therefore didn't win - I can't see a problem.


Edited by Paramedic - 29 Jul 19 at 8:44pm
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 19 at 6:14pm
Elvstrom had it right all those years ago when he said "if in the process of winning, you have lost the respect of your competitors, you have won nothing". I suspect Scheidt did not lose his respect for Ainsley and would have done the same himself had positions been reversed. 

Very good point about the difference in boat speed making the tactic less acceptable in a handicap fleet (though I'm buggered if I can decide if it would be fair if the slow boat was covering, I would have though, unless they were very close in performance, the faster boat would have little difficulty breaking the cover).


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 29 Jul 19 at 6:15pm
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 19 at 5:50pm
I'd agree, ok in a class race, but not in handicap.

But, if the positions were reversed, and the slow boat had to cover the fast one, is that OK?!
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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stonefish View Drop Down
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Posts: 10 		Post Options Post Options   Quote stonefish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 19 at 5:26pm
Thanks for the replies, I did feel bad afterwards especially as I get on well with the person. I took the time to apologise and they took it well.  I just assumed it was the right thing to do having not been racing long, one to remember not to do again I think. 

Thinking about it clearly like you mention Andy I gave them no chance of winning, not because I was the better sailor but just because I had the advantage of the faster boat.  Unhappy  
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 19 at 4:41pm
I assume the last race could be your discard so you could afford to come a poor placing and the slower boat was counting a poor result without which he could win? 

Regardless of that I suppose it all depends how seriously you take winning. It was the right thing for Ainsley to do to Scheidt but if you feel guilty I'd hazard you would take a different decision should it happen again?

In my case I like to think I'd do #2 in a club series but I'd probably do #1 in a championship (not that I'm ever likely to be in that position again).


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 29 Jul 19 at 4:41pm
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andymck View Drop Down
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 19 at 4:40pm
Yes, you should feel bad.
Although this is a fair thing to do in a single class series, both boats have an equal chance, and if they break your cover then you have to sail better to get back in front.
In the scenario you describe you have an unfair advantage in the faster boat in this situation.
Although the rules allow you to do it, I would as a fellow competitor feel you were being disrespectful, I would even say it was bullying, as no matter how well they sailed you could just be the bigger kid in the playground.
This happened in the sailjuice series a few years ago. It did not go down well.
Andy Mck
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stonefish View Drop Down
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Posts: 10 		Post Options Post Options   Quote stonefish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 19 at 3:38pm
What would you do in this scenario:

Last race in a club handicap series, you are leading the series overall and a slower handicap boat is in second place, you are the only two left in the series with a chance of winning.  If the slower handicap boat wins this last race they win the series, if they come 2nd or worse you win the series. The wind strength for the last race is suited to the slower handicap boat.

Do you:

1. Cover them the whole race meaning someone else wins the race but you win the series
2. Try and win the race yourself and if you don't hope someone else apart from the 2nd place boat in the series does but in the knowledge the wind strength is very favourable for the 2nd place boat
3. Something else

I recently did number 1 and won the series but felt bad afterwards, should I?
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