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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 8:04am
Originally posted by mozzy

 But, no one is spending the money the FAST40 or RC44 or TP52 or Open 60 or Volvo Class boats are on winning on IRC. They want to win class events. 

Even if that is the case it is not the perception I get watching from afar. The only results that seem to get into the yachting news on my occasional glances at keelboat racing articles/results are line honours at the big events like the Fastnet and Round The Island races. I might see a 'first in class' result mentioned but I can't ever recall seeing a One Design fleet winner being mentioned.

Like I said though I have only a passing interest in keelboats.

Ah, just a minute, isn't the Vende Globe (or one of those 'nut job' Round The World races so beloved of the French) sailed in one design boats?
 


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Posts: 6660 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 8:46am
Pedantically speaking we can't alter our ratings Chris, we can only alter the boat and get it rerated and hope its advantageous.

In theory of course that's also open to dinghy sailors, since there's no reason why one shouldn't peel the stickers off the sail and change the configuration, but its not likely to be a successful ploy without a measurement system to attempt to game.

I dunno, I would think by now most measurement systems are going to be pretty close, bearing in mind the huge disparities in crew speed, but I suppose if you can alter your boat so you tend to sail in clear air rather than in a pack that could be worthwhile.

It occurs to me that would be a fruitful strategy for dinghy handicap racing as well: if you pick a class where you are sailing in clear air for most of the race that has to have potential - except of course for the psychological factors. I can imagine a tendency to relax and not sail flat out if sailing on your own.

Edited by JimC - 04 Oct 18 at 8:48am
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 8:57am
Not so sure Jim, for handicaps based on a measurement rule then yes it would work (and IIRC, back in the day all sorts of weird and wonderful hull shapes resulted fro efforts to 'optimise' the boat to the rule and improve it's rating) but the way dinghies are handicapped means that a class that sails in clear air most of the time will have a PN that reflects that fact.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 9:04am
Well the waters a little muddied for the FAST40+ because they incorporate IRC in to their class rules. And yes, they do race on that handicap, but they are designed to that handicap system, which is a measurement system. So, really it's just a box rule, with concessions for how hard you push the envelope. It's the same for things like 1/4 tonners. 

Take hamble winter series, fairly middle of the road level of competition. 11 divisions / classes. There are the 5 IRC bands, then there are 5 classes, plus the FAST40+, whichever way you decide that is. 

The IRC is popular because for most when spending tens of thousands on a yacht, they want something multi purpose and therefore are are cruiser / racers. IRC works really well for this, but it's not really a situation we have in dinghy racing. 

Either way, it's a stretch to say 99% of yacht racing is handicap and it's a stretch to say its the norm at the highest levels. 
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 9:43am
Originally posted by mozzy

Well the waters a little muddied for the FAST40+ because they incorporate IRC in to their class rules. And yes, they do race on that handicap, but they are designed to that handicap system, which is a measurement system. So, really it's just a box rule, with concessions for how hard you push the envelope. It's the same for things like 1/4 tonners. 

Take hamble winter series, fairly middle of the road level of competition. 11 divisions / classes. There are the 5 IRC bands, then there are 5 classes, plus the FAST40+, whichever way you decide that is. 

The IRC is popular because for most when spending tens of thousands on a yacht, they want something multi purpose and therefore are are cruiser / racers. IRC works really well for this, but it's not really a situation we have in dinghy racing. 

Either way, it's a stretch to say 99% of yacht racing is handicap and it's a stretch to say its the norm at the highest levels. 

Not exactly.
Very few of the top half of any decent IRC fleet will double up as family caravans. Most of them, the crew won't even sleep on.
OD classes come and go. Sigma 33, X-99, X332, these things last 5 to 10 years then end up back in IRC.

The big difference from dinghies is that in most events IRC works in bands of maybe 10% speed difference, and virtually all the boats will have similar performance across the wind range.Boats with sprits are often in their own race.
But very often the actual standard of racing isn't that great.
People will argue what the top end of 'big boat racing' is, but events like Fastnet, Sydney Hobart etc are on Handicap, other things are either level rating (different design but same rating) or OD.

There is a lot of OD racing in open keelboats, Dragons, Soling, Etchells..These classes endure, as do older ones like the XOD.
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 9:49am
What percentage of dinghy racing is handicap and how much fleet racing? I suppose in terms of boats on the start line at L&LSC it's around 20% Solo's and the rest handicap but the Lasers and Radials sail in the handicap fleet. If they had a separate start that would be 30 boats fleet racing and 34 handicap so around 45% fleet? 
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