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Veteran status at nationals
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Late starter View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Sep 18 at 11:33pm
Yes that's sort of what the keen guys say at the club. Personally I miss sailing in between races and grabbing a cup of tea and an ablutions break, probably an age thing but one of the reasons I don't race much anymore. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 8:26am
At my old clubs coming ashore between races was definitely better. The lake was tiny, we had a pontoon you could tie up to, and without a licensed bar the main social interaction was between races. Races always finished on the club line right next to the club house. 

At my coastal clubs coming in is a faff. Tidal range makes launching and recovering a little more difficult in every way. We do lose boats between races though waiting around. 

As for championships, it's a difficult balance to strike. Too long on the water and it kills the social, too short and people feel short changed. Too long races and it gets boring and processional, too short and you spend more time setting up for starts and waiting for finishers that actually racing. 

I think most championships end up with too many races. You can understand why. People are paying to go sailing, so when asked if they want to do more sailing, they say YES! Often the AGM deciding such matters is near the beginning of the event, sailors are hungry for sailing. Like children offered all you can eat sweets they want more, more, more. But anyone who has gorged themselves into a bloated sickly stupor knows otherwise. 

Perhaps ask people how busy the race programme should be on the last day, as the fleet is putting on wet sailing kit with blistered hands and aching backs. Like a kid throwing up on their 10th Easter Egg, they may just opt for less next year. 
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H2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 8:49am
A few weeks ago at our H2 Nationals at Herne Bay we had two helms show up who are over 70 and they raced all seven races over three days including three back-to-back races on the Saturday in a force four. One of the guys had never sailed the boat before as he had borrowed a demo although he had been a Hornet National Champ back in the day so was a decent sailor. I was amazed that they were out for all the races and still at the bar when most of the 40 year old guys who were at the front of the fleet went off to bed.

I did talk to them about exactly this point and they were a bit offended that as a class we would even consider "excluding" them from racing with the young guys. They knew they would be toward the back of the fleet, especially when it was breezy, but they loved being part of the bigger fleet. I guess its hard to take in all these differing views!




Edited by H2 - 19 Sep 18 at 8:50am
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 9:13am
The trend, in some locations and with some RO's, is for 'more' races of shorter duration.  This can make 'back to back' a right pain.  You can frequently spend more time getting to the race area, returning later and in between 'faffing' around in between races for almost as long as the races themselves.  A general recall .. or two ..and the balance of racing time verses 'faffing' time is damaged even further... Further if the RO gets too precious on course alterations in between the (many) races things can start to get hopeless !  

At club level .. 'proper' one hour races and a break ashore in between (so two races per day) is a good balance.  Championships ?   Two races of 75 minute duration for the leader if in reasonable weather would be my preferred format per day... Many of us however do three or more of course but the tendency is for RO's  to  shrink them  as each year passes "to ensure the full programme is delivered"...   and the consequence is that often you spend more time 'faffing' for the reasons already given.   As an 'oldie' myself I'm not arguing for 'less' racing (in terns of time spent racing) but I would prefer far less 'faffing' - the more individual races run the higher the potential for general or even RO induced buggering about (yes I know they do a great job and give us their time etc - BUT please oh please focus on the quality of racing more than the number of races !).  One observation is that shorter duration races put even more emphasis on getting that optimum start.  All well and good but 'line pushing' and OCS's seem to be increasing and the inevitable general recalls  that result contributes to yet more 'faffing'.

Sailing weeks ?  a single race per day but of LONG duration is so much more civilised.  Fewer 'push the line' and the obvious absence of  'back to back' related faffing makes life a damn sight better ! 
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Posts: 84 		Post Options Post Options   Quote AlanH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 9:29am
Cirrus is bang on the money re the faffing time rising quickly as the number of races increases. Can happen when ROs are behind the Championship schedule, and trying to deliver extra races on a day. This year I've twice had this experience, at both open meeting and Championship level. This resulted in 20 minute races. Normal club races are usually 40-50 mins, if doing 2 or 3 races in an afternoon. I don't expect races at Championship or open level to be far worse than at club level, or what is the point of travelling? Even sadder is the RO/ organising club seemed to think they'd done a great job!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 9:56am
The only thing I find at club level, with longer races, is that the fleet spreads out to such an extent that no-one is really racing. It's even worse with handicap fleet. I tend to lose the will after 45 minutes unless there's a good contingent in my class (I don't mind pursuits because they get more exciting towards the end, rather than duller). 

Best racing at our club is sprints. 15 minute races. 5-15 boats, never gets spread out too far. But, you do have to turn around quick; 3-2-1-go starts, straight in to sequence after the last boat finishes, don't move marks unless completely necessary, no recalls. A one day mini series of 6 races with no discard to discourage people from pushing the line.  

Above 15 boats and you can start extending the race time out, as even as though the fleet spreads everyone will have someone near enough to feel like they're still engaged in a race. In championship fleet of 50+ boats then one 1.5 hour race a day would be fine. 
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 10:12am
Originally posted by Late starter

Yes that's sort of what the keen guys say at the club. Personally I miss sailing in between races and grabbing a cup of tea and an ablutions break, probably an age thing but one of the reasons I don't race much anymore. 

We have a longer race in the morning, then a tea break, then the two short races, then its kids training. So you can do the one race and have an early lunch, all 3 races and have a late lunch, and then go home and mow the lawn for some brownie points or teach the sprogs.
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Posts: 301 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Time Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 10:29am
Originally posted by lionel rigby

82 and still sailing dinghies is to be respected but Salcombe Merlin week is one race a day and even I could drag myself along for that.  I don't think Alan entered the Merlin Nationals this year, don't see his name in the results, but stand to be corrected.
Yes I agree it is a decision for each class to make and I will be interested to see if the Tasar fleet would be interested in creayting a new slot for veterans.


There are actually two races a day but the 120 boat fleet is split into four flights so that you only sail one race a day. Seems to be popular as the recent ballot for the 120 places in 2019 saw 55 put onto the waiting list ie 175 wanted to go.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 10:58am
Originally posted by Cirrus

Further if the RO gets too precious on course alterations in between the (many) races things can start to get hopeless !    

ain't that the truth.... so much time wasted faffing around can quite literally put you off the whole travelling to events experience.  

And that's without all the travel faff either end of packing the boat up and taking it back to the club etc. 

Given one of the main reasons we travelled (past tense for some of us now) was for class racing, (even the sail juice events I attended was only because there were other class members going), it does kind of feel very strange that there's less focus or seeming desire for it, at the local sailing clubs.

It's all very strange, and I've given up trying to fathom it all out and the various machinations that come with that.

Back to the OP - hats off, sir.  And yes, damn right, your class should recognise its veteran competitors in what ever way seems appropriate.  
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Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 11:04am
Some interesting points. Tend to agree with Cirrus about the drive towards back to back/more races having some unintended consequences such as an increase in faffing about time. I guess the main point I was trying to make is that what's right for a big event like a nationals may not be right for small club sailing. We've got a bit of a split at my club where we've got 5 or 6 keen racers who do the circuit, and have come back to the club and persuaded the sailing committee to organise loads of back to back races. Turnouts have dropped, and we're finding that we're seeing more boats on the water for some informal mid week racing that some of our older guys have organised. This more informal approach seems to have worked really well in encouraging newbies to join in, as the experienced guys have got time to chat to the newbs between races etc. Interestingly, when you ask the new racers why they don;t want to join in with the main Sunday racing they say things like it looks complicated, the standard looks too high, there isn't anyone around to talk to, or they don't understand the start sequence. Horses for courses etc, but seeing this has made me in favour of reverting back to the old days of 2 or 3 decent length (45-60 minute) races with a longer break between the first two races for lunch and short break between the final two races. . 
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