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Veteran status at nationals

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    Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 9:56am
The only thing I find at club level, with longer races, is that the fleet spreads out to such an extent that no-one is really racing. It's even worse with handicap fleet. I tend to lose the will after 45 minutes unless there's a good contingent in my class (I don't mind pursuits because they get more exciting towards the end, rather than duller). 

Best racing at our club is sprints. 15 minute races. 5-15 boats, never gets spread out too far. But, you do have to turn around quick; 3-2-1-go starts, straight in to sequence after the last boat finishes, don't move marks unless completely necessary, no recalls. A one day mini series of 6 races with no discard to discourage people from pushing the line.  

Above 15 boats and you can start extending the race time out, as even as though the fleet spreads everyone will have someone near enough to feel like they're still engaged in a race. In championship fleet of 50+ boats then one 1.5 hour race a day would be fine. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AlanH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 9:29am
Cirrus is bang on the money re the faffing time rising quickly as the number of races increases. Can happen when ROs are behind the Championship schedule, and trying to deliver extra races on a day. This year I've twice had this experience, at both open meeting and Championship level. This resulted in 20 minute races. Normal club races are usually 40-50 mins, if doing 2 or 3 races in an afternoon. I don't expect races at Championship or open level to be far worse than at club level, or what is the point of travelling? Even sadder is the RO/ organising club seemed to think they'd done a great job!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 9:13am
The trend, in some locations and with some RO's, is for 'more' races of shorter duration.  This can make 'back to back' a right pain.  You can frequently spend more time getting to the race area, returning later and in between 'faffing' around in between races for almost as long as the races themselves.  A general recall .. or two ..and the balance of racing time verses 'faffing' time is damaged even further... Further if the RO gets too precious on course alterations in between the (many) races things can start to get hopeless !  

At club level .. 'proper' one hour races and a break ashore in between (so two races per day) is a good balance.  Championships ?   Two races of 75 minute duration for the leader if in reasonable weather would be my preferred format per day... Many of us however do three or more of course but the tendency is for RO's  to  shrink them  as each year passes "to ensure the full programme is delivered"...   and the consequence is that often you spend more time 'faffing' for the reasons already given.   As an 'oldie' myself I'm not arguing for 'less' racing (in terns of time spent racing) but I would prefer far less 'faffing' - the more individual races run the higher the potential for general or even RO induced buggering about (yes I know they do a great job and give us their time etc - BUT please oh please focus on the quality of racing more than the number of races !).  One observation is that shorter duration races put even more emphasis on getting that optimum start.  All well and good but 'line pushing' and OCS's seem to be increasing and the inevitable general recalls  that result contributes to yet more 'faffing'.

Sailing weeks ?  a single race per day but of LONG duration is so much more civilised.  Fewer 'push the line' and the obvious absence of  'back to back' related faffing makes life a damn sight better ! 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 8:49am
A few weeks ago at our H2 Nationals at Herne Bay we had two helms show up who are over 70 and they raced all seven races over three days including three back-to-back races on the Saturday in a force four. One of the guys had never sailed the boat before as he had borrowed a demo although he had been a Hornet National Champ back in the day so was a decent sailor. I was amazed that they were out for all the races and still at the bar when most of the 40 year old guys who were at the front of the fleet went off to bed.

I did talk to them about exactly this point and they were a bit offended that as a class we would even consider "excluding" them from racing with the young guys. They knew they would be toward the back of the fleet, especially when it was breezy, but they loved being part of the bigger fleet. I guess its hard to take in all these differing views!




Edited by H2 - 19 Sep 18 at 8:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 8:26am
At my old clubs coming ashore between races was definitely better. The lake was tiny, we had a pontoon you could tie up to, and without a licensed bar the main social interaction was between races. Races always finished on the club line right next to the club house. 

At my coastal clubs coming in is a faff. Tidal range makes launching and recovering a little more difficult in every way. We do lose boats between races though waiting around. 

As for championships, it's a difficult balance to strike. Too long on the water and it kills the social, too short and people feel short changed. Too long races and it gets boring and processional, too short and you spend more time setting up for starts and waiting for finishers that actually racing. 

I think most championships end up with too many races. You can understand why. People are paying to go sailing, so when asked if they want to do more sailing, they say YES! Often the AGM deciding such matters is near the beginning of the event, sailors are hungry for sailing. Like children offered all you can eat sweets they want more, more, more. But anyone who has gorged themselves into a bloated sickly stupor knows otherwise. 

Perhaps ask people how busy the race programme should be on the last day, as the fleet is putting on wet sailing kit with blistered hands and aching backs. Like a kid throwing up on their 10th Easter Egg, they may just opt for less next year. 




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Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 18 at 11:33pm
Yes that's sort of what the keen guys say at the club. Personally I miss sailing in between races and grabbing a cup of tea and an ablutions break, probably an age thing but one of the reasons I don't race much anymore. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 18 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by Late starter


but some of the racers at the puddle I sail on have picked up the back to back bug at their nats and insist on doing it in club racing too, although one can launch and be in the sailing area in 5 minutes so seems a bit pointless.

The minutes all add up though: we have two 20 minute back to back races early afternoon, and no more than 10 minutes between them as we start the 2nd sequence within a minute or so of the last finisher.

So it takes say 80 minutes for: sail out and sequence (10 mins), -> last finisher (30 mins), sequence (5 mins), last finisher (30 mins), sail in (5 mins).

If we had two separate races and a 5 minute comfort break on shore it would be
sail out and sequence (10 mins), -> last finisher (30 mins), sail in (5 mins), break (5 mins) sail out and sequence (10 mins), -> last finisher (30 mins), sail in (5 mins), so its at least an extra quarter hour, even if can genuinely get the sailors back out in 5 minutes (unlikely I submit!), more likely its 20 minutes and half an hour later for the same racing.

Then if you consider the days when its light airs and the start the far side of the puddle and its not 5 minutes to get out there!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 18 at 8:33pm
What happens when a fit pensioner wants to race in the normal section ? I should say younger age bracket rather than normal  Embarrassed

Edited by 423zero - 18 Sep 18 at 8:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 18 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by A2Z

To be honest I don’t think it is just over 65s who would rather not squeeze 9 races into three days. There seems to be a belief that ‘proper’ racers will want lots of races to make up for the effort of travelling, but I believe it is only a small hardcore who actually enjoy such a full on schedule - which is probably one reason why so many don’t travel.
Yes I tend to agree with that, but I suppose it does vary from class to class. When I was a young Laser hot shot (and that was a LONG time ago) I used to begrudge any time when we weren't on the water, 3 or 4 races a day didn't seem unreasonable. I'm guessing many classes that attract the keener racing types are still much the same. Fast forward 20 years and I sailed a few nats with my young daughters in a more family friendly class and nats week had crews races, prizes for first lady, first junior, first senior, days off, on the water treasure hunts, and a great social programme that worked alongside a couple of races most days. It made for a great family holiday for all involved.  Can't say I like the idea of 9 races in 3 days, and am I the only one who dislikes all this back to back stuff ?    I can sort of "get it" for clubs with big sailing areas, but some of the racers at the puddle I sail on have picked up the back to back bug at their nats and insist on doing it in club racing too, although one can launch and be in the sailing area in 5 minutes so seems a bit pointless.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 18 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by mozzy

It's a bit of a faff extracting results...

If using Sailwave the alias feature is your friend.
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