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Drop the discards?

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    Posted: 23 Aug 18 at 8:47am
That seems to be the idea coming from 49er and Nacra class manager Ben Remocker. 

"Because these classes race in relatively small fleets, and because the classes are so competitive that top teams often (almost always) have finishes deep in the pack, there is no reason to complicate scoring by having a drop race. The total, highest impact of putting in the single drop race was 12 points, across the three fleets of 49er, 49erFX and Nacra 17. When everybody is dropping a high score, the impact on the results is minimal."

Seems a pretty valid argument for highly competitive fleets, but do you think it's valid for amateur championships too? What ratio of discards do you think gives the fairest result in championships and weekend opens? 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 18 at 10:09am
I've always raced at events with a discard every 4 races or so which would give the event above 3 discards. But that wouldn't change the order of the top three.

I prefer it as a single bad race (due to equiment failure maybe) can completely ruin your chances of a result. Maybe there is a case at high level where all the sailors are close in ability buy at club/regional level I think a discard or two allows the better sailor to overcome a bad result.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 18 at 10:39am
It's an interesting question. Assuming you are not talking about club series which span several weeks and non-attendance is therefore inevitable, I think the use of discards is somewhat a legacy of ye olde days. There are many other sports where a bit of bad luck can spoil your result - Formula 1, Premier League, Test Match cricket – but you can't discard your worst race, match or innings. In any case if the series is long enough your luck should average out, and serious gear failure is unusual these days (and most likely due to poor care than bad luck). So in that sense I see no need for a discard at all in a weekend open or week long championship. On the other hand, having no discards encourages a conservative strategy, whereas a high percentage of discards encourages risk taking – hit the corner and you may win or lose, but you can discard the loss and bank the win.

So I would suggest that at the Olympics the different classes should have a different discard policy as that way they actually become different events (with different strategic approaches to racing) rather than the same event conducted in different classes.

However I prefer the format suggested by Andy Rice in this month's Y&Y mag, where the medal event is the first to two race wins, with the winner of the qualifying series counting one race win at the start. That way the gold medallist is always the person to win the last race, which again encourages positive sailing and makes intuitive sense to the audience.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 18 at 11:06am
In fact until fairly recently they did have discards in Formula One.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 18 at 11:12am
Originally posted by A2Z


However I prefer the format suggested by Andy Rice in this month's Y&Y mag, where the medal event is the first to two race wins, with the winner of the qualifying series counting one race win at the start. That way the gold medallist is always the person to win the last race, which again encourages positive sailing and makes intuitive sense to the audience.

I like that idea, until if you assume that the medal race is a 10 boat fleet then you have a potential of needing 10 races for the final, however small the chance. perhaps a 3 boat fleet on in very reduced course area with that format would work to keep the viewer interest up?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 18 at 11:30am
I can’t remember the numbers, but I think the proposal was to have 4 boats in the medal series, so max 5 races. The uncertainty around the number of races to televise is still an issue though.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 18 at 11:59am
All of these ideas seem unnecessarily complicated, why not use the F1 scoring system with points for the first 10 places, easy for the general public to understand?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote salmon80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 18 at 10:53pm
got to have a discard. if you get t-boned off the start by an idiot it can ruin your race and the series.
you cannot have a 10 race series where someone has 9 wins and a RTD 82 and get beaten by somebody who comes 9th in every race
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 18 at 3:09am
If you don't have a discard in "amateur" racing, you'll probably have a lot more requests for redress. Many times it seems that when you're mired in mid pack and having a bad race, you get slowed down by people who don't know the rules. If you're going to drop the race anyway and therefore it doesn't matter if you finish 15th or 20th, it's no big deal and you don't make an issue of it. If, on the other hand, you had to count every race those five points may prove critical. Therefore you'll probably quite often end up with a top contender protesting some mid-fleeter or a back-of-the-fleet sailor who was having a better than usual race. That doesn't sound like a really good recipe for fleet harmony. It's also very hard to see how a race committee could work out what adjustment to apply if one of the potential winners wins a redress request after being hit at a mark rounding when they are buried 25 boats back on the first lap. 

I'm also unsure what the problem is that not having a discard is trying to solve. Yes, some other sports count all results. On the other hand, there are sports that only count a few results - long jump for example discounts most attempts. 

F1 has had discard races in the past and often the crowns are decided before the last race. It doesn't stop F1 attracting huge crowds. Similarly, the last day in the Tour de France is basically ceremonial and has only once decided the winner in over a century of competition; normally even the green sprinter's jersey has already been decided before the last day.

Since some of the world's biggest sporting events often effectively don't count the last event or all the events, it's clearly not a major issue for spectators.


Edited by Chris 249 - 24 Aug 18 at 3:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 18 at 7:01am
Interesting one...

In a three race series like a one day open I'm all for dropping the discard to keep things exciting.
For a 6+ race series like a laser qualifier or a national championship , I think it would have two effects.

1. People would respect the start line more
2. The winners of individual events would get more random and the tactics would change significantly.

For example, you could win 5 races by miles, then have a 20th due to external mishaps (someone crashes into you on the start line) and lose to someone who scored 5ths.

You'd therefore have every race as damage limitation because a bad score does you more damage than the improvement a good score does.  I think that the racing would get quite negative and you would choose to cover/limit exposure in every situation.



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